Please, help me see this once for all

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

Honestly, I'm expecting to see, with no doubt, that there is no separated I

We had already this in the beginning:
Ve: When investigating this "I", what can you find? I guess you will find a lot of I-thoughts. Anything more?
Nelson: Just these I-thoughts.
So if there comes up any doubt you can look again here and now.
Do you find any seperate "I"?

There has never been a separate “I” and yet the idea of an “I” has always appeared. Why would that change? When Santa Claus was seen to be a character and not real…what actually changed? Only your perception of him changed. Christmas still comes around, Santa is still seen on every street corner, gifts are still exchanged and Christmas Carols are still sung. In other words, life went on as usual and the seeing of Santa etc still happened, but did that make him real? All that happened is that there is now a knowing that Santa -what he is and the story about him, is just that…a story.

And from this, to let go of this constant need to try to control everything, and this non-stop self-criticism.

These are behavior and thought patterns. Anything more?
They don't dissappear automaticaly my seeing through the illusion.
As said above in the chrismas example: Christmas still comes around, Santa is still seen on every street corner, gifts are still exchanged and Christmas Carols are still sung.
We did this thought exercise and the palm raising exercise, do you remember?
Could you find any chooser or controler?
Is it just like this in this experiment or a general seeing / insight?
If not general, so just stop your controlling and self-criticism thoughts. Now and forever.
Does it work? Do you have any control over it?

So next time these controlling or self-criticism thoughts pop up, investigate it exactly as we did in the experiments!
And report about!

Finally being able to just be in each moment in the way it is, and enjoy it, without resistance.

Can you ever be not in this moment?
This moment is joy or sadness, reistance or not, the whole spectrum of life experience .....
This is.
Can it be different?

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

If you are looking for this someone or no one what do you find? not thinking, looking!

I found nothing besides thoughts, sensations, and other perceptions. I notice that I was still believing that even though I couldn't find it, it could be there, because "the eye can't see the eye" and the seeing would be evidence of the existence of a seer. But it occurred to me that, even if the "eye can't see the eye" what is the evidence that the seer is independent, or has any control? Even saying that it exists because there is seeing is also strange because no one has ever seen any evidence of it. It seems to be simply a belief, a persistent one. On the other hand, there are always thoughts saying that the seer is there, and I'm just believing that it is not, and not looking right. A funny trick, isn't it?! :)

What is this " impact on me"?

When fear arises.

what makes a thought to be "my thought"?

In direct experience it is just a thought. The belief that a body exists, and only this body is having access to these thoughts, and that this body is "mine", makes the thought appears to be mine.

There has never been a separate “I” and yet the idea of an “I” has always appeared. Why would that change?

"Awakened" people seem to know that they are awake, so thoughts about "I" seems to change after "awakening", but I may be interpreting it wrong. I also notice that I'm still seeking, at least a little, having the clear seeing that I had in the past, not as an isolated experience, but as an ongoing experience. I know that an isolated clear seeing should be sufficient to prove that there is no "I", but it is not.

This moment is joy or sadness, reistance or not, the whole spectrum of life experience ..... This is. Can it be different?

I still believe that it can. The shifts that I had during the Finders Course already changed my relation to what is going on, having less resistance, and less clinging to my self-image. Awakened people also seem to be in a more authentic and relaxed state, at least most of the time. Expectations seem to be one of my big obstacles...

Please, I know I may sound stubborn in these answers, but please don't get me wrong. I'm just trying to not fool myself. (Although maybe this is exactly what I'm doing :D)

Thank you, Verananda.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

Please, I know I may sound stubborn in these answers, but please don't get me wrong. I'm just trying to not fool myself. (Although maybe this is exactly what I'm doing :D)

you are doing well. thoughts always fool. Can any thought be true?
the remedy is real looking is actual experience.
We are on this way until it's done! :-)

On the other hand, there are always thoughts saying that the seer is there, and I'm just believing that it is not, and not looking right.

Thats the point. Looking. Again and again.

What is this " impact on me"?

When fear arises.

Is this an impact on you? Waht is the actaul experience of fear?

"Awakened" people seem to know that they are awake, so thoughts about "I" seems to change after "awakening", but I may be interpreting it wrong. I also notice that I'm still seeking, at least a little,
Awakened people also seem to be in a more authentic and relaxed state, at least most of the time.

There are a lot of stories about "awakened people" .....
Yes on stage they seem relaxed, wise, .....
HAve you ever met one "backstage"?

having the clear seeing that I had in the past, not as an isolated experience, but as an ongoing experience.

there are again a lot of tales about "ongoing experience" and states of everlasting happiness. Looking here and now: Is there more than the experience in this one and only moment? Is'nt anything else a thought? Then check again: what is an isolated and what an ongoing experience? Can that experienced here and now?

I know that an isolated clear seeing should be sufficient to prove that there is no "I", but it is not.

thats a good point. Indeed it is for most people necessary to look again and again. You can do it here and now! Any I/me found? Anything else than senasation, sound, color, taste, smell and thoughts?
This continuous looking will make the shift.

This moment is joy or sadness, reistance or not, the whole spectrum of life experience ..... This is. Can it be different?
I still believe that it can.

Can this moment realy be different as it is?

Lets do an experiment together ...
I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).


Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

Can any thought be true?

No, a thought has no true or false intrinsic value. It just looks true probably because of other thoughts saying so.

Is this an impact on you? Waht is the actaul experience of fear?

Its arbitrary to say that it impacts on "me". There are sensations like the sensation of the heart beating fast, and thoughts like "I'm getting close", or "this is dangerous". But these perceptions seem to just happen, without a "me" involved.

Have you ever met one "backstage"?

No, just on videos, here in LU, and on meetings of the Finders Course. But never on their day-to-day lives.

Is there more than the experience in this one and only moment? Is'nt anything else a thought? Then check again: what is an isolated and what an ongoing experience? Can that experienced here and now?

There is only this moment, everything else are thoughts. Ongoing experiences then are the experience of this moment, including thoughts about the experience in the future.

You can do it here and now! Any I/me found? Anything else than sensation, sound, color, taste, smell and thoughts

It seems that "I" in the same way as "body" is an idea defined in itself. When we say "I" we are referring to an idea of a body, personality, history, wishes, relationships, and, above all, separation and control. But that is it, an idea referring to a lot of other ideas. This doesn't mean that they exist in reality. In fact, is difficult to say that they do, when the only thing that we can find are colors, sensations, sounds, smells, tastes and ideas (thoughts).

It is kind of obvious that all these obstacles to accepting that an "I" doesn't exist are just more ideas. But they are so ingrained that are difficult to ignore. This waiting for a " final shift" also seems to get in the way.

Can this moment really be different as it is?

No, because it is already happening. It is also kind of logical to even conclude that free will doesn't exist. We can't even find an "I" that would have this free will.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Sounds are all mixed up, but ok, I heard the sound of my phone's alarm.

Since we started talking I've been having insights all the time. Thank you for your help, Verananda.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson

Its arbitrary to say that it impacts on "me". There are sensations like the sensation of the heart beating fast, and thoughts like "I'm getting close", or "this is dangerous". But these perceptions seem to just happen, without a "me" involved.

yes thats how it is. So is "impacts on "me"" anything else or more than a thought "on top"?

Ongoing experiences then are the experience of this moment, including thoughts about the experience in the future.

ok. so there is the experience of this moment. and everything else is thought .....

It seems that "I" in the same way as "body" is an idea defined in itself. When we say "I" we are referring to an idea of a body, personality, history, wishes, relationships, and, above all, separation and control. But that is it, an idea referring to a lot of other ideas. This doesn't mean that they exist in reality.

Is "I" and "body" more than a lable? is this "idea" more or other than a thought?

It is kind of obvious that all these obstacles to accepting that an "I" doesn't exist are just more ideas.

:-)

This waiting for a " final shift" also seems to get in the way.

what is this waiting for a " final shift" in actual experience?
after seen what it is - how could it be "in the way"?
another thought?

Sounds are all mixed up, but ok, I heard the sound of my phone's alarm.

Great! Now can you repeat the exercise and tell me:-

How is it known that the sound heard is your phone's alarm?
What is it that says that it is a phone?
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘phone's alarm’? ‘

Please do the exercise by looking at actual experience (AE), rather than giving an intellectual answer. Actual experience (AE) = what is actually appearing ie sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation, colour, as opposed to what thoughts say are appearing.

Since we started talking I've been having insights all the time.

:-)
it also seems to me that something is changing, shiftig ...!

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

yes thats how it is. So is "impacts on me" anything else or more than a thought "on top"?

Yes, is just a thought.

Is "I" and "body" more than a label? is this "idea" more or other than a thought?

They seem to be just labels. In fact, it seems that "I" and "my" are labels applied to everything, especially this sense of aliveness, or "experiencing". I'm investigating this.

And yes, ideas are just thoughts.

what is this waiting for a " final shift" in actual experience?
after seen what it is - how could it be "in the way"?
another thought?

A lot of other thoughts are in the way. Indeed, they are believed to be in the way probably because other thought says so. I'll investigate this.

How is it known that the sound heard is your phone's alarm?
What is it that says that it is a phone?
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘phone's alarm’? ‘

Immediately after hearing the sound a mental image of my phone popped-up. Probably a lot of more subtle thoughts saying that it is "mine" also popped up, but I couldn't notice it.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson

They seem to be just labels. In fact, it seems that "I" and "my" are labels applied to everything, especially this sense of aliveness, or "experiencing". I'm investigating this.

Yes, thats important to investigate: There is this sense of aliveness. IS evrything else that says I / my/ self ..... added afterwards by thought? Look in actual experience for this. Dont think about. Tell me what you find!

A lot of other thoughts are in the way. Indeed, they are believed to be in the way probably because other thought says so.

:-)
any thought that can be known as true?

How is it known that the sound heard is your phone's alarm?
What is it that says that it is a phone?
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘phone's alarm’? ‘

Immediately after hearing the sound a mental image of my phone popped-up. Probably a lot of more subtle thoughts saying that it is "mine" also popped up, but I couldn't notice it.

ok, so you see: AFTER hearing .....
so, when hearing .... in the actual experience, is there a "phone"? Is there "my phone"?
Please answer "What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘phone's alarm’? ‘"
(when I give you questions it is hellpful, you answer each question individual!)

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I'm really grateful for your patience. Sometimes I consider giving up this inquiry, but there you are, always ready to guide.

Sometimes this inquiry is very confusing and frustrating to me. Generally, peace just comes when I see that all there are is perceptions. At that point, thoughts lose much of their power.

Yes, thats important to investigate: There is this sense of aliveness. IS evrything else that says I / my/ self ..... added afterwards by thought? Look in actual experience for this. Dont think about. Tell me what you find!

I have more work to do in this one. All I can notice is that this sense of aliveness is there all the time, while everything else is always changing, including the "I/my" thoughts that comes and goes.

I imagine that there is a gap between something happening and thoughts labeling it as "I" or "mine" but I couldn't notice it yet.

any thought that can be known as true?

Thoughts are just thoughts, with no intrinsic true or false value. But what I noticed is that as these thoughts sound like "me", they are believed to be true.

so, when hearing .... in the actual experience, is there a "phone"? Is there "my phone"?

No, just the sound and thoughts about it.

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘phone's alarm’?

There is the sound, and immediately after there are thoughts labeling the sound, saying that it's coming from a phone, my phone, and there is its mental image. Of course, none of these is a phone.

when I give you questions it is hellpful, you answer each question individual!

All right!

This phone alarm exercise was great. I've been practicing it with other things, like the sound of cars passing by.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

Sometimes I consider giving up this inquiry, but there you are, always ready to guide.

fine you are still there!
you are on a good track! Dont give up! :-)))

Sometimes this inquiry is very confusing and frustrating to me. Generally, peace just comes when I see that all there are is perceptions. At that point, thoughts lose much of their power.

Yes, thats a very imortant insight! So from this peacefull place, can you see what makes this inquiry and other stuff confusing and frustrating?
(Its not about changing it, just seeing what happens!)

I have more work to do in this one.

thats good .... and do it in a relaxed way. Less doing, more looking, be curious!

All I can notice is that this sense of aliveness is there all the time, while everything else is always changing, including the "I/my" thoughts that comes and goes.

yes. and from this place the whole game can be seen as it is. Tell me what changes when you be aware of this sense of unchanging aliveness as much times as possible during the day? You can use something that reminds you ... like: Always you look at the time, or you drink something, or ... just stop for a second and have a look .....

I imagine that there is a gap between something happening and thoughts labeling it as "I" or "mine" but I couldn't notice it yet.

There is the sound, and immediately after there are thoughts labeling the sound, saying that it's coming from a phone, my phone, and there is its mental image. Of course, none of these is a phone.

You already found the GAP! So you dont have to imagine it, you can look at it during daily work. So this is the next exercise: Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts and between perception and thoughts as often as possible.

Thoughts are just thoughts, with no intrinsic true or false value. But what I noticed is that as these thoughts sound like "me", they are believed to be true.

Can you find a general difference between me-thoughts and other thoughts?
Is this "believed to be true" anythink more or other than thought?
Could you find a thinker of thought?

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I will practice for some more days, and then answer your post completely. The exercise that you gave me is amazing.

Yes, thats a very imortant insight! So from this peacefull place, can you see what makes this inquiry and other stuff confusing and frustrating?
(Its not about changing it, just seeing what happens!)

Yes. It's the content of thoughts...

You already found the GAP! So you dont have to imagine it, you can look at it during daily work. So this is the next exercise: Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts and between perception and thoughts as often as possible.

I'm still investigating this labeling, but it seems that wherever attention goes there is labeling. If attention goes to looking, a mental image of this body looking pops-up. If attention goes to this sense of aliveness, a mental image of myself pops-up. If a memory arises, other labels also pops-up.

Sometimes I'm dragged by the contents of these thoughts, but realizing that everything is perceptions help me escape from this dragging.

Sometimes I also try to understand the implication of these insights, that seems to be quite obvious, but mind goes blank.

Best,
Nelson

[nothingness]

Sometimes I also try to understand the implication of these insights, that seems to be quite obvious, but mind goes blank.

Oh.. this trying to understand is just the content of another thought...

This is tricky :)

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

I will practice for some more days, and then answer your post completely.

take your time.

I am waiting for your answers with my response

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

Things seem to be getting clearer...

Yes, thats a very imortant insight! So from this peacefull place, can you see what makes this inquiry and other stuff confusing and frustrating?
(Its not about changing it, just seeing what happens!)

Yes, the contents of thoughts. A history about a frustrated and confused "I".

yes. and from this place the whole game can be seen as it is. Tell me what changes when you be aware of this sense of unchanging aliveness as much times as possible during the day?

I'll try to do it more. Most of the time I was just looking and noticing the labeling happening. But the times when attention was in this unchanging aliveness, generally there was a less personal experience, with labels about a "me" popping-up in the middle of it.

So this is the next exercise: Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts and between perception and thoughts as often as possible.

Wherever attention goes there is labeling. If attention goes to looking, a mental image of this body looking pops-up. If attention goes to this sense of aliveness, a mental image of myself pops-up. If a memory arises, other labels also pops-up.

It is funny, even when my face shows some emotional reaction, there are labels about a me in that emotional state, e.g. sad, with anger, etc.

Can you find a general difference between me-thoughts and other thoughts?

No, I can't.

Is this "believed to be true" anythink more or other than thought?

I infer that it is a thought, but probably a subtle one, because I've couldn't notice it.

Could you find a thinker of thought?

Now it is not so clear, maybe because I'm tired, and more easily dragged by thought, but during this afternoon it was pretty clear that there isn't a thinker, a doer, etc, just thoughts about an entity that couldn't be found. Thoughts were then passing by more freely and had more space.

This happened after an insight that popped-up. I was feeling sad, then I asked myself, where is this I that is sad? Then I started looking for it and realized that colors, sensations, sounds, smells, and thoughts can't be sad, and those were the only things that I could find in the experience. I couldn't find a sad entity, it was just a history that the mind was telling about a sad "I". Probably a labeling of the pattern that was arising.

I will investigate it more.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson

I'm still investigating this labeling, but it seems that wherever attention goes there is labeling. If attention goes to looking, a mental image of this body looking pops-up. If attention goes to this sense of aliveness, a mental image of myself pops-up. If a memory arises, other labels also pops-up.

Focussing on heavy thoughts creates a heavy world
Focussing on wonderful thoughts creates a wonderful world
Focussing on labeling creates a world full of labels (= thoughts) ;-)
Perhaps this labeling has done its job now and focussing on experience brings you back to image, sound, taste, smell and sensation ....? Don't care about all that labeling that might continue ....

exactly as you said:

Most of the time I was just looking and noticing the labeling happening. But the times when attention was in this unchanging aliveness, generally there was a less personal experience, with labels about a "me" popping-up in the middle of it.

Sometimes I also try to understand the implication of these insights, that seems to be quite obvious, but mind goes blank.

wonderfull. this is looking instead of thinking! ;-)

Is this "believed to be true" anythink more or other than thought?
I infer that it is a thought, but probably a subtle one, because I've couldn't notice it.

investigate this. what makes a thought "true"?
look at some thoughts that you "believe to be true".
without any other thought commenting: its true! or "no its not" or "maybe it could be different ..." etc, is this first "belief-thought" more or other than any other thought?

Then I started looking for it and realized that colors, sensations, sounds, smells, and thoughts can't be sad, and those were the only things that I could find in the experience. I couldn't find a sad entity, it was just a history that the mind was telling about a sad "I".

:-)
you are doing good.

How does "just being / beeing alive" unfold in your everyday experiences with others and life?
Would you say you have seen through the illusion of the separate self fully and completely now?
Are there any sticking points you'd like to explore?

Love Ve

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

investigate this. what makes a thought "true"?
look at some thoughts that you "believe to be true".
without any other thought commenting: its true! or "no its not" or "maybe it could be different ..." etc, is this first "belief-thought" more or other than any other thought?

This "belief-thought" is just another thought.

Would you say you have seen through the illusion of the separate self fully and completely now?
Are there any sticking points you'd like to explore?

The only thing that changed is that thoughts about an "I" still arises, but they are not believed anymore. They are just thoughts. I imagined that seeing no-self would scare me to death, but it is so normal. Should I be seeing that everything is just one thing? Or that I'm one with everything? This is not what is happening. There is just life going on. I guess that all of it is just wrong expectations...

As Ilona usually says "once seen, it can't be unseen". Indeed, those thoughts can't fool me no more, but I've noticed that from time to time I have to look for this "I" just to be sure. This also helps me to get some distance of thoughts. Is this ok?

I've also noticed that mind is still trying to grasp the implications of it, but it generally just goes blank. There are thoughts saying that can't be just it. Other saying that I have more work to do. Other saying that I'm deceiving myself. Some worries about finishing this conversation without being ready. But, well, thoughts say anything...

How does "just being / beeing alive" unfold in your everyday experiences with others and life?

My everyday experience and relation to others changed intensely after the Finders Course, but I was still identified with the thinker, and so somewhat self-conscious, and particularly depressed believing that I'll never "awaken". Now there are fewer thoughts, especially the self-referential ones, and this thinker is seen for what it is, just another thought. This worry about never being able to wake up is kind of gone.

There is a sense that this can be deepened, but also a sense of okayness to what is. There is some relief, as if this seeking is no more so important, and that I can finally do other things.

I've also noticed that I can relate better to other people, being less self-conscious. Things just flow more naturally.

I confess that there is also some disappointment and doubt, all these books and teachers have created so many expectations. This remembered me the funny reaction of Jamie, after seeing no-self, in the Gateless Gatecrashers. :)

Best,
Nelson