SelfingStrong

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

Is there any doubt about this? What is this thought about witness attempting to describe?

No, there isn't a doubt about this. I had to sit with it for a while but it's attempting to describe that sense of being or general aliveness.

Try this experiment:

Everytime you look at something, label it. Chair. Table. Cup. Car. Whatever. A minute or two of this is enough.

Now stop. When you stop labelling, does experience simply stop? Or continue?

Experience continues even when I stop labeling.

Now try the same thing again and label everything wrongly. So table is chair and so on.
Did anything change?

Same as above, experience continued. It was easy to see the emptiness of a label when it was done wrongly.

The point is, does actual experience change regardless of how "it" is labelled? Or when there is no labelling at all?

No, the experience is the same regardless of how it's labeled or even if it's not labeled at all.

You can play around with labelling thought stories in the same way. So label decision "event", or control "release". Or just "blah" for anything. Just once or twice when these stories appear. You don't need to do any of these exercises for very long.

I found this one a little more difficult. The label with thought stories didn't come as easily. So when a thought story "frustration" appeared, I would just use the label "blah, blah, blah". That put some distance there but I might need to spend a little more time on this one.

What appears to be the difference between these two exercises - labelling sense experience, and labelling thought stories? Is there one or other of them that points more directly to actual experience? Or are all forms of labelling simply thoughts about thoughts?

I have chewed on this one for a bit and I might be mis-understanding the question but sensory experience feels more like actual experience than thought story simply because I can see or point to a chair for example and I can't really find frustration anywhere. Is that what you are asking?

I hope I'm not being too difficult here. Thank you so much for your patience.

Lisa

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Great. So:

What appears to be the difference between these two exercises - labelling sense experience, and labelling thought stories? Is there one or other of them that points more directly to actual experience? Or are all forms of labelling simply thoughts about thoughts?

I have chewed on this one for a bit and I might be mis-understanding the question but sensory experience feels more like actual experience than thought story simply because I can see or point to a chair for example and I can't really find frustration anywhere. Is that what you are asking?

All I am asking is what you find. They were not trick questions or questions with one right or wrong answer, but purely to get you looking.

However: is, for example "table" a label about actual experience of something that is actually a table? Or is it simply thought about sensation and colour?

What is "table" in actual experience? An actual table, or merely a thought?

In terms of labelling thought stories, the question is as before - is what is labelled as "unsettling" an actual experience of not being settled? (What would that actually look like?) Or is there just thought labelling thoughts, and there is no not being settled to be found?

All good wishes,
Dave

[DrWilko]

And - just to continue with this a while:

I had to sit with it for a while but it's attempting to describe that sense of being or general aliveness.

If there is no separate witness, in attempting to describe "sense of being, aliveness" - how do you see it now? What does "sense of being, aliveness" consist of? I realise I am asking you to continue looking at something you say isn't there.

Do you still have a "sense of being"? If so, what does it consist of? Where is it located? Does it have any boundaries? Be as honest as possible how it seems for you now.

And don't remotely be concerned about "being difficult"... Being honest about what seems true when you look is what is required, nothing more. This appears to be exactly what you are doing.

Best, Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave - I was traveling today and just need some time with this. I will reply shortly. Thanks!

[EMWBerry]

However: is, for example "table" a label about actual experience of something that is actually a table? Or is it simply thought about sensation and colour?

Yes, if I don’t rely on thought at all, it is just color and has a shape but it’s thought that says it’s a table.

What is "table" in actual experience? An actual table, or merely a thought?

Yes, it’s just a thought.

In terms of labelling thought stories, the question is as before - is what is labelled as "unsettling" an actual experience of not being settled? (What would that actually look like?) Or is there just thought labelling thoughts, and there is no not being settled to be

No, similar to fear, it can’t really be found as an actual experience. Just thought labeling thought.
I’m doing this from my phone and had a hard time copying your second question so I’m going to reply in a second post.

[EMWBerry]

Hi again,

f there is no separate witness, in attempting to describe "sense of being, aliveness" - how do you see it now? What does "sense of being, aliveness" consist of? I realise I am asking you to continue looking at something you say isn't there.

I would describe it as just being or knowing.

Do you still have a "sense of being"? If so, what does it consist of? Where is it located? Does it have any boundaries? Be as honest as possible how it seems for you now.

. Yes, I notice it in emotionally charged situations. Had a very scary flight last night where the plane dropped a few times and things were flying around. That sense of I was definitely there along with the thought of wanting to control things. I asked, where is the I that feels threatened and I felt a big sense of nothingness (but not relief necesarily). Definitely no boundary. But the thoughts like ‘i’ is more than A thought and you need to protect it we’re going through my mind along with bodily sensations and it’s just hard not to believe it.

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Let's get straight to it:

What does "sense of being, aliveness" consist of? I realise I am asking you to continue looking at something you say isn't there.

I would describe it as just being or knowing.

How is something known? Going back to the table example - is table actually known, or just sensation, colour, and thoughts about table?

Is the content of sensation and colour actually table? Is thought of table actually table? Is table actually known?

Do you still have a "sense of being"? If so, what does it consist of? Where is it located? Does it have any boundaries? Be as honest as possible how it seems for you now.

Yes, I notice it in emotionally charged situations. Had a very scary flight last night where the plane dropped a few times and things were flying around. That sense of I was definitely there along with the thought of wanting to control things.

Let's use the same method.

There is emotion: what does it consist of and where is it to be found?

We haven't really addressed "I", Lisa yet.

There are sensations labelled as this or that sensation that "I", Lisa is having.

There is colour labelled as this or that that "I", Lisa is seeing.

There is sound labelled as this or that that "I", Lisa is hearing.

There is taste labelled as this or that that "I", Lisa is tasting.

There is smell labelled as this or that that "I", Lisa is smelling.

Look back in our thread. We didn't find a separate seer and sight objects, only seeing. We didn't find separate sounds and sound objects, only hearing.... And so on.

But in sense of self - in "emotionally charged situations", I, "Lisa", feels threatened and fears loss of control.

Where is this "I", Lisa to be found? Is there anywhere we haven't looked?

To put it another way, colour, sound, taste, sensation, smell, thought labelled "mine", or "I am having", or "I am doing" are known. But is "I", or Lisa known in actual experience? Or is "I" or "Lisa" merely a thought, like "table" is a thought?

If "I", Lisa cannot be found, how can she be in control? How can she lose control?

Much love,
Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

How is something known? Going back to the table example - is table actually known, or just sensation, colour, and thoughts about table?

No, table is not actually known, just sensation, color and thoughts about table. It’s definitely not my default way of experiencing things though. I almost have to pretend I have amnesia to see it like this. That label “table” pops up almost automatically. It takes a little effort to see it as just color. I hope that makes sense.

Is the content of sensation and colour actually table? Is thought of table actually table? Is table actually known?

No, to all of this. Table is not actually known.

There is emotion: what does it consist of and where is it to be found?

There are just thoughts and bodily sensations but no “emotion” can be found.

Where is this "I", Lisa to be found? Is there anywhere we haven't looked?

Based on what i’ve discovered in these experiments, there is no “I” or Lisa to be found. It’s just a story. And there is nowhere we haven’t looked.

To put it another way, colour, sound, taste, sensation, smell, thought labelled "mine", or "I am having", or "I am doing" are known. But is "I", or Lisa known in actual experience? Or is "I" or "Lisa" merely a thought, like "table" is a thought?

I’m not sure how much this is actually sinking in but when you phrase it like this, yes, “I” or “Lisa” is merely a thought. The thoughts are known but “I” am not known in actual experience.

If "I", Lisa cannot be found, how can she be in control? How can she lose control?

It would be impossible. A thought can’t be in control or lose control. I still think I’m only grasping this intellectually though. I was just trying to get my daughter to take her medicine and it really feels like there is an “I” who wants her to take her medicine...not just a thought “I want to her to take her medicine”. There is just something that is not clicking.

Thank you for your guidance, Dave.

Lisa

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

I still think I’m only grasping this intellectually though. I was just trying to get my daughter to take her medicine and it really feels like there is an “I” who wants her to take her medicine...not just a thought “I want to her to take her medicine”. There is just something that is not clicking.

Great, stay with that feeling. That feeling that "I" want something. Notice the thought story of wanting. Then look at experience. You say it is not just a thought. So other than thought of wanting, what do you find? You know how and where to look now, because we have been practicing!

Can I ask, is there fear that when you see this "I" is nothing more than a thought, that somehow there will be no way of getting your daughter to take her medicine?

Will everything somehow magically disappear when, after looking everywhere, the conclusion must be drawn that "I", as in Lisa, is nowhere to be found? Dig around there, look as we have been at the feelings that come up.

It is like you are standing at the gate, looking through and seeing everything exactly as it is, but something is preventing you from just stepping through, because there is an assumption that somehow something will be lost.... But there never has never been anything to lose in the first place Lisa....

Explore what comes up when you read that. And stay with any fear or discomfort or frustration of not getting it. Look and see, is Lisa feeling something called fear, or discomfort, or frustration, or is actually all you find present in experience, and there is only thought that a separate entity called Lisa experiences them? If there is an entity separate that experience somehow "happens to", where would it be found separate from.experience itself?

With all warm wishes,
Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave - I am taking some time with this. I will post a reply shortly...

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

You say it is not just a thought. So other than thought of wanting, what do you find

? I have looked at this throughout the past couple of days and really tried to take my time. The first thing I noticed is how distracted I get when trying to do so. It’s like the ego knows what’s coming. But ultimately I don’t find a self. Just thoughts of “I want this” or “I am experiencing that”.

Can I ask, is there fear that when you see this "I" is nothing more than a thought, that somehow there will be no way of getting your daughter to take her medicine?

Yes, I remember having the thought “there is no me who can make her do this and what if she doesn’t take it”. There are lots of scenarios like this, especially with the kids.

Will everything somehow magically disappear when, after looking everywhere, the conclusion must be drawn that "I", as in Lisa, is nowhere to be found? Dig around there, look as we have been at the feelings that come up.

Nothing came up for a while and it’s really hard to access but there are feelings sadness around the idea of there being no “me”. Even if “Lisa” is just a story, there is some sort of identification with it. It seems sad to let it all go.

It is like you are standing at the gate, looking through and seeing everything exactly as it is, but something is preventing you from just stepping through, because there is an assumption that somehow something will be lost.... But there never has never been anything to lose in the first place Lisa....

Explore what comes up when you read that. And stay with any fear or discomfort or frustration of not getting it. Look and see, is Lisa feeling something called fear, or discomfort, or frustration, or is actually all you find present in experience, and there is only thought that a separate entity called Lisa experiences them? If there is an entity separate that experience somehow "happens to", where would it be found separate from.experience itself.

There is for sure frustration at not getting it. And when I stay with it, I see there is the thought “you are never going to get this” accompanied by some bodily sensation. Looking for the “I” that is never going to get it....and I find more thoughts. If “I” is just a thought, it still feels real. I’m not sure if I’m moving backwards here but it seems it’s the combination of thought being associated with this body that create the I. Like somehow the 2 are tied and it creates an I. I hope I haven’t opened a can of worms.

[DrWilko]

Good digging Lisa. I can see the investigation is beginning to bring up some powerful emotion - which I suggest is a good sign. But be kind to yourself. Like I said before, let it unfold. There is no need to try and get anything. Just keep looking with interest and kindness.

Can I ask, is there fear that when you see this "I" is nothing more than a thought, that somehow there will be no way of getting your daughter to take her medicine?

Yes, I remember having the thought “there is no me who can make her do this and what if she doesn’t take it”. There are lots of scenarios like this, especially with the kids.

Are either the thoughts "I want her to take this" or “there is no me who can make her do this and what if she doesn’t take it” actual experience taking place between you and your daughter? Or is the experience happening, in sensation, colour etc. and thought chimes in and suggests something should be different? Do the thoughts make any difference to what occurs?

Look back at our experiments with choice - this is a similar thing. Is it possible to think one thing and do another? So do thoughts make anything happen, or influence experience? In the moment of "action" are thoughts making the action happen or is it just happening?

There are some more exercises we can do to explore this if this doesn't seem clear, but for the moment just look back at our thread where we touched on that and look again at the story "I want to make something happen". Does a sensation know that there is anything missing from experience? Does thinking that something is missing and therefore wanted affect experience itself, or is experience happening regardless of what is being thought?

Will everything somehow magically disappear when, after looking everywhere, the conclusion must be drawn that "I", as in Lisa, is nowhere to be found? Dig around there, look as we have been at the feelings that come up.

Nothing came up for a while and it’s really hard to access but there are feelings sadness around the idea of there being no “me”. Even if “Lisa” is just a story, there is some sort of identification with it. It seems sad to let it all go.

Yes - I can see what you mean - but there is nothing being let go of, because there was nothing there to begin with! Look again at what is identifying. What is identifying with a story? Is there something separate from the story, looking at it and identifying, or is identification itself purely just another story?

Look at sadness. And any emotion that comes up in this investigation. They are your guide, because you understand this and the only thing between you and "seeing" is what you are describing as fear and sadness.

So look at the fear and sadness as we did before. Tell me about fear and sadness. What are they, in actual experience? What do they seem to be, as a story? And ask the same question - is the thought defining the sensation, making it this or that emotion? Or is there just sensation, and thought attempting to assign it a label, to define it? Does thought create what it attempts to describe? Is thought itself the experience? Or is there just experience exactly as it is, regardless of thoughts?

There is for sure frustration at not getting it. And when I stay with it, I see there is the thought “you are never going to get this” accompanied by some bodily sensation.

What is the bodily sensation? Where is it? Describe it. Does this sensation have any knowledge of "getting it" or not?

Does a thought itself know whether something will be got or not? In any thought, is there "knowing" of something? For example, does the thought table actually know "table", or the thought "fear" actually know about fear, or is it just an idea?

It seems we are dealing with expectations once again. How is something "known"? How will the absence of a separate self be "known" do you think?

Think about how we have been looking:

Is sensation known because thought labels it, or is it known regardless of thought?

Is experience known because thought labels it, or is it known regardless?

It is the same with seeing there is no self. It is known, seen, regardless of thought. The thought Lisa, or "I" will not magically disappear - nor will all the stories about Lisa. But it will be known that there is no Lisa regardless of thought.

Take care,
Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave...I am still chewing on this...will reply shortly...

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Thanks for touching base. Take as long as you need!

All good wishes,

Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,
The first few times I read this, it was hard to understand but then there were some definite moments of clarity.

Are either the thoughts "I want her to take this" or “there is no me who can make her do this and what if she doesn’t take it” actual experience taking place between you and your daughter? Or is the experience happening, in sensation, colour etc. and thought chimes in and suggests something should be different? Do the thoughts make any difference to what occurs?

No, the thoughts are not actual experience and they make no difference as to what occurs. It took some time to see this and I definitely lose sight of it but it's strange because all along (prior to this) it has felt like thoughts were having an impact on what happened in life.

Is it possible to think one thing and do another? So do thoughts make anything happen, or influence experience? In the moment of "action" are thoughts making the action happen or is it just happening?

No, again, thoughts don't make anything happen.

There are some more exercises we can do to explore this if this doesn't seem clear, but for the moment just look back at our thread where we touched on that and look again at the story "I want to make something happen". Does a sensation know that there is anything missing from experience? Does thinking that something is missing and therefore wanted affect experience itself, or is experience happening regardless of what is being thought?

Experience is happening regardless of what is being thought. It's pretty clear...have definitely had some very "light" feelings upon realizing this...like a moment of thoughts and body not really being connected at all. But it's fleeting. Would it be possible to do another exercise just so this crystalizes a little more?

What is identifying with a story? Is there something separate from the story, looking at it and identifying, or is identification itself purely just another story?

I have looked her and can't find anything identifying with the story, so it must be more thought upon thought.

Tell me about fear and sadness. What are they, in actual experience? What do they seem to be, as a story? And ask the same question - is the thought defining the sensation, making it this or that emotion? Or is there just sensation, and thought attempting to assign it a label, to define it? Does thought create what it attempts to describe? Is thought itself the experience? Or is there just experience exactly as it is, regardless of thoughts?

So, trying to be honest here, this is still a little sticky for some reason. It is definitely sensation and thought attempts to define or label it. I can see it clearly sometimes but at other times, I get tricked by the thoughts in that it feels like they create a me that needs to be fearful or sad. In other words, it does seem it is creating what it attempts to describe. It feels like thought itself is the experience.

What is the bodily sensation? Where is it? Describe it. Does this sensation have any knowledge of "getting it" or not?

It's a fluttering in the chest area and no, the sensation alone does not have any knowledge of "getting it".

Does a thought itself know whether something will be got or not? In any thought, is there "knowing" of something? For example, does the thought table actually know "table", or the thought "fear" actually know about fear, or is it just an idea?

It is just an idea.

It seems we are dealing with expectations once again. How is something "known"? How will the absence of a separate self be "known" do you think?

I think it'll be known when the belief in the thoughts is no longer there.

Is sensation known because thought labels it, or is it known regardless of thought?

If I'm understanding this correctly, it is known regardless of thought. The sensation is there regardless of what thought is calling it.

Is experience known because thought labels it, or is it known regardless?

It is known regardless.

That was a LOT! Thanks for your guidance Dave - I am so appreciative!

Lisa