Ready to dive in...

[ixturtle]

one type of knowing?

Yes I guess that's right... Refutes all standard perception of knowledge of course... Including my answer re., knowing

Speaking of which, iPhone headache persists but I get your point. I will persist (as much as that makes sense to say). For now though, if we could keep to one or two questions that would be great.

Keep what up?

Aside from technical challenges, there is a thought that this is endless... Which is an exhausting thought... I really don't feel "addicted" to seeking though- just awash with doubting thoughts. I suppose letting those thoughts be part of the show, rather than held up as knowing would help. Still confused by what feels like will (a decision to view thoughts as show). Ok, to bed with tired knees, but happy traveling heart.

[vinceschubert]

http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/search?q=doubts

[ixturtle]

[i expect a progression, a deepening into a state where brain conditioning will fade resulting in habitual, ritualistic thoughts decreasing.[/quote]

Thought on doubts totally resonate. And expectation of gate dissolving slowly towards above.
Nevertheless my thoughts are that about .03 percent of my day includes a sense of living a carachter Rather than a "me". Do I just trust that it will deepen? And can you help me get a handle onthis word "do"? Beyond just the convention of it? As long as I think I'm doing stuff, then the gate feels very far away...

[vinceschubert]

can you help me get a handle onthis word "do"?

Yes, this is a biggie. It is also a pivot point.

Look at your next question.

Do I just trust that it will deepen?

Do The point in question here. Doing. (more below)
I Who ?
just This word could be saying "only" but it contains a perception of 'allowing', of 'ease' of something 'small'
trust How can trust be 'done' ? Does trust include 'surrender' ? 'acceptance' ? a 'welcoming' of what IS ?
that
it It may be just language, but it's not an IT. It's not a thing.
will This word contains the future. Nothing happens in the future. When does every happening occur ?
deepen By "deepen" i take it that you mean "more constant", or a bigger experience ??
? Normally a question is "you ask, an external answer is sought", but;
the answer is always contained in the question
the answer is mostly not in thoughts, rather a realisation
Don't seek answers, allow them to present themselves

Is surrender what happens when you do not do ?
Surrender doesn't mean 'giving up', Surrender means Letting Go !
Surrender means that the Only thing that can happen is to Witness, just Watch, Observe. No judgment, No Opinion, No Belief. Wordless Observing. Thoughtless Observing. Mindless Observing.
And in that, there is a SEEING. A SEEING of What IS
Now let's not get too pure here. Thoughts or Doing will still occur, you can't willfully turn them off, but you can recognise them for what they are. An attempt by mind to do what it is good at. Maintain the status quo, keep within the familiar.
This is where (you have heard it said) that everybody is already enlightened. Whatever IS, is. Shit included. It all just IS. Even when it's not, it IS.
ix, do you have a choice which thoughts arise ?
Do you have a choice about anything ?

[ixturtle]

Arrived at train station in one piece, weary and quite disconnected from all this. Sorry for falling off the LU wagon....
While train cell service is spotty, I'll have loads of solo time (three full days) to engage with this. Will re- read your last post & reply in the morn. Now... sleep is coming...

[vinceschubert]

Sweet sleep ix, you might just wake up awake...

[ixturtle]

Do you have a choice about anything ?

Yesterday I arrived at the station and had to tell the window clerk where I was going. It took me about an hour of deliberation on the phone with a friend to "make a decision". Of course this was the mind's attempt to control an outcome-- to make a wise and sensible and pain-mitigating decision. It felt like I had to choose something in any case. What does surrender look like here? Showing up and pointing blindly to a dot on the map? Flipping a coin? Just trusting (there's that word again; both words) whatever came out of my mouth when I walked up to the window? Just letting all the anxst ridden deliberation go on as long as it must because really I have no choice not to deliberate based on my programming?

Feeling very trapped in a life, in a story, in a mind....

Surrender means that the Only thing that can happen is to Witness, just Watch, Observe. No judgment, No Opinion, No Belief. Wordless Observing. Thoughtless Observing. Mindless Observing.

And your answer is right here-- and of course even while totally caught up there is an observing happening. But still there seems to be a choice as to whether the observing is conscious or not-- though of course if i had a choice in that moment i would have chosen to joyfully watch all the craziness. So one again, no choice. In this moment "I'm" observing (and the "I" is intended as I feel totally identified with my story of lostness right now) a lot of feelings the mind identifies as despair.

An attempt by mind to do what it is good at. Maintain the status quo, keep within the familiar.

I watched this a lot this past week. Mind refuses to let what's happening just be. Can't stop it. It just keeps trying to "fix" everything, and I'm so exhausted by it.

[vinceschubert]

It felt like I had to choose something in any case.

Choosing happens, it's just that there isn't actually a you doing it. i 'know' that what SEEMS to be outside of this skin is a projection, and so i see 'signs' that are the choice. Beautiful Freedom.

Just letting all the anxst ridden deliberation go on as long as it must

It will anyway, so once again no choice. i Do find that once seen it usually evaporates with a chuckle.

Feeling very trapped in a life, in a story, in a mind....

...and it is created by mind too. Don't you think it is Wonder-Full how powerful this mind can be to generate such overwhelming sensations ?

But still there seems to be a choice as to whether the observing is conscious or not

The key here is "there seems". It is part of the illusion. Choosing happens, the mind claims ownership.

It just keeps trying to "fix" everything, and I'm so exhausted by it.

The exhaustion come from resistance. Develop humor when noticing all of the shit that occurs.
Your on a ride that's started. You can't get off anyway, so kick back and enjoy (or not)
Ha, it seems that you are on two journeys at the same time now.

love

[ixturtle]

so i see 'signs' that are the choice.

Don't quite get this... Can you clarify?

Choosing happens, the mind claims ownership.

I get there's no I to choose, but is it wrong to say the mind chooses-- based on conditioning... Which i suppose if it's conditioned, it's not a choice...

The exhaustion come from resistance. Develop humor when noticing all of the shit that occurs.

Maybe it's just life circumstances, but since I've started this process I seem to have lost my sense of humor... The last few years i have often found myself laughing deeply at both the wonder and folly of life. I think part of that had to do with letting go of trying to get anywhere. In that sense, this process seems to have resurfaced the worst of my success/fail tendencies.
Another down side to this process is that I used to be mid-dream (while sleeping) and recognize the story and there would be a lovely stillness in the dream. This has been replaced in the last few months by constant dream chatter.

Not giving up mind you-- just recognizing that in an effort to continuously reposition myself to see, there's an apparent going backwards feeling and I find myself annoyed with everyone (mostly me but I seem less patient with others too).

On the flip side, it feels good to be on this wagon again because without the reminders, I was sinking into complete disconnection from even a possibility of freedom. A lot of "I"s here I know...

[vinceschubert]

vince said; "so i see 'signs' that are the choice."
ix asked; "Don't quite get this... Can you clarify?"

Circumstances decide. eg. i had an appointment in town this morning. Wife said "get milk, tomotoes, garlic, & bread". After appointment i thought "it's a pain that not so good tomatoes are $10/kg". Then on way to usual shop, i saw the farmers market. (sign) i'll get tomatoes and other stuff there. They had good tomatoes for $6/kg. While there i remembered wife saying yesterday that the rockmelon (cantaloupe) was nearly finished. On the way into the farmers market, i spied the place where i get the car serviced (i had been meaning to book it in for the last month, so i did. While i was doing that i went next to a shop where i been meaning for the last 4 months to return an unnecessary purchase. (which i had put in the car only a week ago) When i went to the fridge to get milk, they only had full cream and white bread so had to go to usual shop anyway. While there i say three other thing needed that weren't on the list. Two other thing similar to this occurred on the way home. So rather than be annoyed at having to go across town to usual shop i took it as a sign that there would be value to do it - and there was.

I get there's no I to choose,

It's not just that there is no I to choose, choice arises from the great mystery. It just happens.

since I've started this process I seem to have lost my sense of humor..

It Will return. Wait until you 'get' the cosmic joke of all of this, you'll roflol.
Do you think that you are taking all of this too seriously ? (that's a joke)

that had to do with letting go of trying to get anywhere.

What we intend here is not an achievement, no where to get, So LET GO !
Recognition, Discovery happens best with the absence of desire.

there's an apparent going backwards feeling

Mind induced. Investigate, is there a story (expectations) about achievement playing out somewhere ?

that in an effort to

as above...

it feels good to be on this wagon again

Ah, Seekers consolidate an I-dentity. Be(a)ware!

A lot of "I"s here I know...

Does each time you use I, result in a little bell tinkling ?
i use a lower case i to acknowledge that it is only a language convention when it is used.
ix, here is a hint, a clue; What we intend to SEE is very ordinary, and it is in your face, and it always has been.

[ixturtle]

i took it as a sign that there would be value to do it

Yes, when im in tune with the magic of life, this is a familiar way to live to me. I guess im just a bit out of sync for whatever reason.

Do you think that you are taking all of this too seriously ? (that's a joke)

Joke or not, even though I can see the absurdly ponderous weight I've been associating with this, I still have a sense of slacker and a sense of resistance and under that probably a sense of I'm not doing it "right" or "enough". Agggg! Where is my perspective?! My lighthearted playful joyful self? Seems to have sunk to the bottom of the Mississippi river we just crossed over.

Recognition, Discovery happens best with the absence of desire.

But if choosing just happens, then desiring or not just is. Letting go means just watching the play? With humor, though that just happens or doesn't too...

there's an apparent going backwards feeling

of course backwards means forwards and that implies achievement. And what's up for me right now is returning home to jobs associated with "joy, clarity and light" and feeling like its all BS (at least for me) and I don't want to do any of it anymore. Sigh.

And meanwhile, in my face" must be right here of course... If that's a hint though (beyond the usual here and now) I didn't get it. Guess I will when I do.

Oh and iPhone autocorrects all my "I"s to capitals... Hahaha

[vinceschubert]

I guess im just a bit out of sync for whatever reason.

That happens here too, but since 'the gate' it usually only lasts a short time (until it is seen) Mostly minutes now.

I still have a sense of slacker and a sense of resistance and under that probably a sense of I'm not doing it "right" or "enough".

You say a 'sense' of... So is there sensations/emotions before the story about... ?
Consider this; When the story gets believed and has been repeated enough it gets relegated to the unconscious. At this point there is no need for mind to vet before behaviour occurs. This is habit, conditioning. Has this occurred with these stories about being a slacker etc. ?

My lighthearted playful joyful self?

This has nothing to do with a self. Lighthearted, playful, joyful are the default state of the organism.

Letting go means just watching the play? With humor, though that just happens or doesn't too...

Haa, beautifully seen. (my story about you letting go just became a portal here)

and I don't want to do any of it anymore. Sigh.

Careful, you are creating/reinforcing a story here. The freedom that is experienced once the choiceless nature of reality is appreciated (which may be your experiencing before return happens) will certainly mean a different relationship to everything and everybody. Then synchronicity kicks in big time (my town trip yesterday) New job opportunities occur (or not) New perspectives in current job occur (on not) If i get stuck anywhere i immediately start looking for what the situation is trying to tell me.

I didn't get it.

It wasn't aimed at 'you'. It is beyond mind/thoughts anyway. The seed IS planted.

love

[ixturtle]

This is habit, conditioning. Has this occurred with these stories about being a slacker

Clearly unconscious habit that generally gets triggered by a thought or image and ping pings with a set of physical sensations roughly labeled despair.
But while all this is unpleasant, it seems to be beside the point since what we're "looking for" here is "beyond thoughts/mind".
What then? Just talk about the weather?

[vinceschubert]

What then?

i don't know what you're asking here, but my first reaction is "then" is future, and we're focused in Now.

Just talk about the weather?

Hmm, The content of (almost) all conversation with a 'yet to be liberated' is "about the weather". But like the 'sign' discussion, everybody is me and every encounter is me looking to communicate something. Usually they (the seeming other) are showing me about beliefs (all beliefs are stories)
ix, answer this (again); Is there an actual I (other than the story) ?
Was there ever ?

[ixturtle]

"then" is future, and we're focused in Now.

Fair enough... So if seeing is beyond mind/thoughts, then what we write Here (all expressions of thought) are in some sense beside the point. As much as i can point to flashes of new perspective or insight, I'm not sure any of it has been beyond thought-- perhaps new or more spacious layers of thought, but thought nonetheless.

ix, answer this (again); Is there an actual I (other than the story) ?

Thoughts appearing that roughly divide into a) no, because I can work out the logic of why there isn't and b) yes, because that's my overall day to day experience, sometimes interrupted by the thought that "I" can look at what's happening another way.