Looking for a long time and quite confused.

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

Are you ok?

Thank you for asking! It helped a lot. Nothing serious happened or anything, but I don't want to say "yes" either, because that isn't true either. Just super many emotions around, and I can't really find a clear way through them. One day it's like "I figured it out/everything is good" the next is like "I have no idea/everything is bad", and so on.

So the last few days the thought vs. thought content difference and noticing of thought content that wasn't real was going on almost all the time. It still is, but it feels as if it becoming less noticed again, then again I realize that those are just thoughts saying something, but still it has become less since the previous days. For example, I realized that the content of thought is unimportant, as it just isn't real (as long as the thoughts aren't about math problems etc.). So the story that is told in thoughts doesn't even have to be positive or something, it's just a random story. And the 'I' in the story is not even 'me', even though it seems to apply to someone, it really doesn't. Thoughts appear just like the body moves, without control behind it.

What wants that? For it to work all the time? What is that? Is that thought wanting to control? A thought commenting on another thought? What? Is it a future thought? Is it a ‘this isn’t it’ thought? Or ‘this shouldn’t be happening’ thought. Why shouldn’t it be happening? What is bothered!

It's a 'trying to avoid fear' thought. Thought trying to avoid bad feelings, or in other words, thought criticizing another thought because it wasn't 'right', and which therefore could lead to bad feelings. What is bothered - my 'sense of self'? Because 'it not working all the time' means that I'm failing, and am not where I want to be (e.g., having only perfect, positive thoughts).

Expectation. Do you think thoughts disappear? Stop? Or somehow only good ones appear! That Buddha never had a bad thought?

Probably related to my previous answer. Yes, definitely along the lines of 'bad thoughts disappearing'. I want good thoughts because bad thoughts mean I'm failing/going to fail, in the sense of not being a good enough human being that doesn't deserve anything.

The point is who controls this? How is a thought different from say a cloud crossing the sky?

Yes, thoughts aren't really controlled, there isn't anyone "speaking" them, they just come and go, as I wrote earlier it's similar to how, e.g., the body moves, as it's an uncontrolled thing. I will try to not mind thoughts so much, especially 'bad' ones.

And then says I only want white fluffy ones up there. And that thought that says I only want white fluffy ones up there, what power does it have? Who or what is it affecting? Look. Watch. Notice. Get curious. Especially if there is resistance or emotion. Look. Watch. Notice.

Yes this is also a big one. Like a thought that says "I want to go back to yesterday, yesterday I felt better", whom does it affect/what power does it have? Why is it/its message relevant? Who gave this thought "power"? Who decided that the judgement "yesterday I felt better" is relevant/right? Who made the thought? Nobody!

The whole "Who or what is it affecting? Look. Watch. Notice. Get curious. Especially if there is resistance or emotion. Look. Watch. Notice." is hard to do, at least I haven't come up with anything really yet (after some minutes of looking). What I came up with is that sometimes a thought can lead to, e.g., being physically angry or sad (or happy) and so on. But whom do emotions affect? Same thing as with thoughts in the end. One other thing - E.g., after something is noticed and a positive thought like "wow! this is very relieving!" come in, who really is relieved? Again, it's a thought, and maybe some 'positive' emotion, but that's it.

Do you think thought can ‘get this’? Does the reflection understand the mirror? Does the wave understand the ocean? Does the song understand the radio?

But can't thought express like logical relations between things/understand how things built upon/relate to another? On the other hand, thought is just thought, it can't "do" things. For example it feels like you 'get this', or at least understand it/know what to look for/know what is and isn't right, how else could you try to show it to me?

Expectation.
What are you rejecting? What do you want to change? Why did you come here? What is wrong that you wanted it gone? You can pm me that bit if you wish.

Sending this bit as a pm. Thank you for offering that!

Patterns run. Sarah is programmed to do certain things, say certain things, behave in certain ways just as a song comes out of the radio in certain combinations. But what are you. The song or the radio? What notices the patterns? Can you see it? If not it doesn’t matter. The point is it IS noticed. Where are you? In the pattern of Felix or the noticing? Look!

Don't think I get this very well so far (it's also getting kinda late). But somehow.. neither? Noticing is somehow coupled to thought that talks about this noticing. But that's it so far.

Thank you so much again!!

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Morning Felix

One day it's like "I figured it out/everything is good" the next is like "I have no idea/everything is bad", and so on.

Is that thought again?

It's a 'trying to avoid fear' thought. Thought trying to avoid bad feelings, or in other words, thought criticizing another thought because it wasn't 'right', and which therefore could lead to bad feelings. What is bothered - my 'sense of self'? Because 'it not working all the time' means that I'm failing, and am not where I want to be (e.g., having only perfect, positive thoughts).

I’ll pm you an exercise for fear. Ok.

Probably related to my previous answer. Yes, definitely along the lines of 'bad thoughts disappearing'. I want good thoughts because bad thoughts mean I'm failing/going to fail, in the sense of not being a good enough human being that doesn't deserve anything.

What wants here? Thoughts? Sensations? Emotions? What?
What is rejecting what is here? Thoughts? Sensations? Emotions? What?

Yes, thoughts aren't really controlled, there isn't anyone "speaking" them, they just come and go, as I wrote earlier it's similar to how, e.g., the body moves, as it's an uncontrolled thing. I will try to not mind thoughts so much, especially 'bad' ones.

Can you do this? Not mind on command? Did it work? ;) no need to not mind. Just notice that’s all that’s needed.

Yes this is also a big one. Like a thought that says "I want to go back to yesterday, yesterday I felt better", whom does it affect/what power does it have? Why is it/its message relevant? Who gave this thought "power"? Who decided that the judgement "yesterday I felt better" is relevant/right? Who made the thought? Nobody!

Explain what you do when a bad thought is noticed? Do you question it? Look at it directly? Sit with it? Argue with it? Rejected it with another thought? What?

But can't thought express like logical relations between things/understand how things built upon/relate to another? On the other hand, thought is just thought, it can't "do" things. For example it feels like you 'get this', or at least understand it/know what to look for/know what is and isn't right, how else could you try to show it to me.

Why are you listening to thought if the content is wrong or not real? What does a thought ‘know’?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

Is that thought again?

Yes - thought and emotions. There were some thoughts along the lines of "am I still feeling bad?"/"is the bad feeling still there?" and - thanks to the exercise - a disconnect between the sensation itself and the thought was recognized (I think?). Anyway, that helped a lot in showing how the thoughts were just the thoughts.

I’ll pm you an exercise for fear. Ok.

Thank you! I think you also posted that before, but it has been incredibly helpful again. I usually only get through the first few sentences when "looking at" an emotion/fear/whatever before.. the disconnect between the sensation and thoughts becomes obvious? I don't really know a good term to describe the "result" of using the exercise. But it has been successful though. I'll keep it around close so I have access to it when I want to use it again.

What wants here? Thoughts? Sensations? Emotions? What?
What is rejecting what is here? Thoughts? Sensations? Emotions? What?

Thoughts. Thoughts say things like "I want...". But it's always accompanied by emotions.

Can you do this? Not mind on command? Did it work? ;) no need to not mind. Just notice that’s all that’s needed.

No! Once a thought is there it's already "too late". What exactly should I notice? That all kinds of thoughts appear? That there can be resistance to thoughts (in the form of other thoughts)? Both?

Explain what you do when a bad thought is noticed? Do you question it? Look at it directly? Sit with it? Argue with it? Rejected it with another thought? What?

It's a mix. Definitely arguing/rejecting it with other thoughts. Something like trying to deny it by "saying" other thoughts such as "this isn't real" "that was just a thought" and so on.

After using the exercise it's also become more of an acceptance sometimes, where there is no resistance offered and instead the subsequent reactions such as emotions etc. are observed. Kind of also accepting/taking a lot at the emotion that is sometimes behind a thought.

Why are you listening to thought if the content is wrong or not real? What does a thought ‘know’?

That's why I.. argue with the thoughts I guess? To try and prove that the content is not right/real. I would say a thought is just like a body movement or something, just something that happens, an expression. I just took a moment to find something that I would absolutely and 100% claim to be true, and then formulated it as a thought, and checked what this thought "knows". The result was funny somehow - I can't really describe it. It was just a thought. Not that serious at all. It just came from somewhere. It left me in a really positive mood, laughing about it somehow. Wow!

Thank you so much! :)

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hi Felix
Sorry I’ll reply in a bit ok.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

no worries, thank you for letting me know!

Felix

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix

That there can be resistance to thoughts (in the form of other thoughts

Lol. That’s funny. Try smiling or laughing when this is noticed!

It's a mix. Definitely arguing/rejecting it with other thoughts. Something like trying to deny it by "saying" other thoughts such as "this isn't real" "that was just a thought" and so on.

Can you watch? As if it’s on the tv?

After using the exercise it's also become more of an acceptance sometimes, where there is no resistance offered and instead the subsequent reactions such as emotions etc. are observed. Kind of also accepting/taking a lot at the emotion that is sometimes behind a thought.

Do you do anything with resistance? Can you watch it? Or is there doing involved?

That's why I.. argue with the thoughts I guess? To try and prove that the content is not right/real. I would say a thought is just like a body movement or something, just something that happens, an expression. I just took a moment to find something that I would absolutely and 100% claim to be true, and then formulated it as a thought, and checked what this thought "knows". The result was funny somehow - I can't really describe it. It was just a thought. Not that serious at all. It just came from somewhere. It left me in a really positive mood, laughing about it somehow. Wow!

Indeed it does! Hahahahaha
Merry Christmas to you and yours if you celebrate Felix.
Hugs Sarah xxxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

Lol. That’s funny. Try smiling or laughing when this is noticed!

Did this a few times, when I remembered! It was actually really funny after a moment - both "sides" are just thoughts.

Can you watch? As if it’s on the tv?

So, when doing this, I noticed that thoughts like "Am I doing this right?" "Watching doesn't work" etc. come up, but they are just thoughts, again.

Do you do anything with resistance? Can you watch it? Or is there doing involved?

Resistance often shows up in the form of thoughts. There isn't really doing involved. But I don't really know how to "just watch" somehow.

Sometimes there were moments when thoughts were interrupted and just stopped in the middle, especially when they were labeling something. For example, a thought that wanted to say something like "I am ..." (e.g., sad/happy/whatever), just stopped there, and that was it. So much is just in thoughts.

Two contrary thoughts, such as "I am X" and "I am not X" are somehow equally much just "thought". They can both exist. What makes one thought 'truer' than the other? Where do thoughts take their "knowledge" from?

I also noticed that thoughts such as "I made progress" or "I feel better now" are also just thoughts. Like a honey trap or something, they seem positive, but at the same time they say that things are "bad" at other times.

A few times when I did the exercise you sent me again, I noticed that it was also thought that said "I want to do the exercise again". The rest was just body movement etc.

I also read through some old posts in this topic again, and I noticed that thoughts such as "wow this is so useful, I should do this more" are also ways to not look at/try to get away from what is now.

Merry Christmas to you and yours if you celebrate Felix.

Thank you! A late Happy New Year to you! :)

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix

But I don't really know how to "just watch" somehow.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts:
(1) Notice the current thought that is present. Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or
“my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.
(2) This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.
(3) Then wait for the next thought to come.
(4) When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.
(5) Then wait for the next thought to come.
(6) Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times. Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought comes in. This is how to look at thoughts. Looking how they come and go. And observing the short gap between them. Noticing how the current thought is passing. And waiting for the next thought to come.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Two contrary thoughts, such as "I am X" and "I am not X" are somehow equally much just "thought". They can both exist. What makes one thought 'truer' than the other? Where do thoughts take their "knowledge" from?

What does a thought know?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

what I noticed so far when watching my thoughts on explicit occasions today and also when I remembered to in between:

It's still kind of difficult, I can't really say why. Focusing on the exercise and just watching thoughts seems to run into quite some resistance. 'Just' watching thoughts without wanting something to change/judging is difficult, I feel like I'm not doing it very well. When I sit down to watch thoughts, a lot of the thoughts that come up are just "I am waiting for a thought", "has the thought passed already?", etc.

On the other hand, I noticed a.. shift in perception maybe? So after watching thoughts for some time I noticed a shift in thoughts when I'm not explicitly watching. I also noticed that thoughts just pass by themselves. It is not possible to influence that in any way, a thought is not a thing, rather something that happens over a (short) amount of time.

I will continue doing this throughout the day tomorrow.

What does a thought know?

I don't really know. When I tried to look at this again, I again found that a thought is more like a movement of my arm or something, it's just something that happens. It is not an entity that does things or something like that. No idea if that's what I'm supposed to see here. In general, it feels like I have already been given so much direction/help that it should be obvious to see what I'm supposed to see with each of the exercises/questions, but I'm too stupid to do it. In the sense of "I'm sorry that you have to deal with me, even though all of this should be easy to do". It does feel like that.

Thank you very much again!

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

HeyFelix
Keep going with the thought exercise. Let me know what you notice after a few days or longer. Ok.

I don't really know. When I tried to look at this again, I again found that a thought is more like a movement of my arm or something, it's just something that happens. It is not an entity that does things or something like that. No idea if that's what I'm supposed to see here. In general, it feels like I have already been given so much direction/help that it should be obvious to see what I'm supposed to see with each of the exercises/questions, but I'm too stupid to do it. In the sense of "I'm sorry that you have to deal with me, even though all of this should be easy to do". It does feel like that.

There are no expectations here from me. I point, you look. That’s it. There is no problem here. This is your seeing, so it comes from your experience. There is no supposed to. There is just what is noticed. Ok. :)
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

so, there was some quite big.. realization? while doing the exercise, though I can't really explain it clearly I'll try as best as I can.

Pretty much while doing the exercise my thoughts were something like "I'm not doing this right", "I need to do the exercise more", "I spaced out again", etc, and there was a lot of frustration and just in general negative emotions. And at some point I realized something - can't really name it, but it was something like "Thoughts decide on reality anyway". "Looking" and "Watching" are just some words in thoughts, whether I'm "correctly looking at thoughts" or not is something only decided in thought. There is no "correct looking" in reality that could be observed. Thought applies only to thought, but not to things that are not thought (i.e., other experiences). "I am looking at thoughts" is just a thought. There is no reality to what thoughts are talking about. Does that make sense? In other words, "watching thoughts" might happen from time to time, but there is no control over it. And it's only thought that says that thoughts were watched.

Anyway, after that, much of the pressure etc. dropped away. There was a very prominent very light feeling for like a day, and now it's there from time to time.

Thanks so much again! :)

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hey Felix
Excellent noticing!

So watching thought in direct experience is every thought a commentary?
Does one thought replace another thought! Or one concept replace another concept?
What makes one more true than another? Anything? Nothing? Can one concept be more true than another! Or are all equally empty?

And what is happening behind thought as thought is doing it’s thing? Does see8ng still happen even without thought saying I see this and that? Does hearing still happen even when attention is elsewhere? What about small, taste and touch?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

So watching thought in direct experience is every thought a commentary?

It depends on what is meant by "commentary". For example, a thought "there is a glass of water standing in front of me": Reality is not words, reality is not "there is a glass of water standing there" as letters or something. Instead, it is for example seeing, which again is only just a word. But seeing is just seeing, it's kind of beyond words. It's unimportant what the thought says, and, in a certain sense, the thought is just part of reality, and not "above" it and talking about it or something. "Commentary" for me implies that things are actually just as thoughts describe them, and that thoughts are absolute, but instead they are pretty arbitrary, and only form their own "system" or abstraction.

In another sense, a thought like "there is a glass in front of me", is of course a comment, or a "description". In that sense thought also comments on other thought, etc.

Does one thought replace another thought! Or one concept replace another concept?

"Replace" is difficult. There is only ever one thought existing or going on at a time. Other than that there is only thought talking _about_ previous thoughts. There can also be this observable gap between thoughts.

What makes one more true than another? Anything? Nothing? Can one concept be more true than another! Or are all equally empty?

As I wrote before, thoughts are not actually outside of reality talking about it, but are part of it, like e.g. seeing or hearing, so just like other experiences. Thoughts are just their own little "world": The word "glass" is just a word, the actual experience of a 'glass' is not letters or words, it's seeing/feeling/etc., so beyond words and thoughts. So in that sense thoughts are just thoughts. They can't be true or false. "True" and "false" are also just arbitrary words appearing in thoughts.

And what is happening behind thought as thought is doing it’s thing? Does see8ng still happen even without thought saying I see this and that? Does hearing still happen even when attention is elsewhere? What about small, taste and touch?

Reality is as it is, and thought can't change that. So whether the thought "I am seeing this" is there or not, seeing is happening. Or rather, whatever is happening is happening and whatever experience is there is there, "seeing" is again just a word. "Attention elsewhere" is more difficult to say. But hearing happens when it happens. That hearing is happening can only be observed when there is attention on it. Hearing in that sense refers to experiences showing up from time to time. Just like smell, taste and touch.

Thanks a lot!

Best,
Felix

[Sarah7]

Hi Felix
Going back a bit you talked about wanting only good thoughts and no bad thoughts, else you felt you were failing. Is this still that case?
What is the difference between a good thought and a bad one! Where is the difference felt!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SomeOne]

Hey Sarah,

Going back a bit you talked about wanting only good thoughts and no bad thoughts, else you felt you were failing. Is this still that case?

It feels like some part of me really really doesn't want this to be solved, as if there was a problem if this was no longer an issue. That being said, if I remember correctly what I meant by this was that I 'need' good thoughts in order to be able to live a good life and achieve the things I want. By having good thoughts I could be a person that people like. Therefore, by having bad thoughts, these things wouldn't happen, and therefore I would be failing "at life"/going to fail.

It's hard to say if this is still the case. I feel like I *should be* 'over this' or something now, as otherwise I didn't do the exercise correctly. However, I do know that this is about my looking and about what comes up, so that's not the case. I just wanted to mention this since I noticed it.

To a certain extent I want to say it is still the case that I want good thoughts - it feels like that could improve my life a lot. At the same time there is a slight shimmer of realization that this is in essence also just hiding from things I don't want to face.

I don't want to feel bad or unconfident or hurt, or without a direction etc! Writing this out feels like it helped.

What is the difference between a good thought and a bad one! Where is the difference felt!

This just had an impact on me when reading it. I don't really have an answer right now. What do "good" and "bad" even mean? Is a thought like "I want X"/"I don't have X" really bad? Does it mean something? That's funny!

When looking at some thoughts that seemed "bad" without them being labeled as "bad" there was a shift to the 'underlying issue', e.g., "I want X" comes from the deeper belief that "I am Y" (which is something negative/something I was trying to avoid/something painful/etc.).

Since you asked where the difference is felt, I would say that there is often some strong, negative emotion in combination with such negative thoughts. Writing this, there was a moment where I looked through the lens of "no good or bad" at such an emotion, which kind of helped with it/dissolved it or something.

One thing I wanted to write about: When I sit down to write these replies and to 'look' (usually in the evening), it leaves me with a positive feeling. During the day however, there are often things and thoughts that occur (or occurred, since those are all in the past) that are uncomfortable and seem to stem from like "deeper issues" that I want to deal with but can't really. I think I'm just looking to "change my life" here or something.

Best,
Felix