Please, help me see this once for all

[nothingness]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is an illusion. An experience of an individualized self, created in pure innocence by the mind, due mostly to conditioning and unquestioned beliefs. A separate self that seems to have a life to be protected and that is in control.
But the truth is that there is no self, no "I", there is just life unfolding in this eternal now.

What are you looking for at LU?
A clear seeing through this illusion. To see clearly, and once for all, that there is no one here in control, and never was, that the body and mind go by itself.
I can see how this belief in a separate self is the root of most, if not all, the suffering, and what also prevents this moment to be appreciated just the way it is.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
To help questioning my core beliefs, and maybe give me some trust to take this step. I would be deeply grateful if someone could really help me in seeing this clearly.
I'm not seeking "amazing" experiences, and I'm not easily offended.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
This journey had started in 2015, and since that time I've got familiar with the works of many non-dual teachers, such as Alan Watts, Rupert Spira, Adyashanti, Sadhguru, and Jed Mckenna. I also have read a lot of LU materials, such as the books Gateless Gatecrashers and Liberation Unleashed: A Guide to Breaking Free from the Illusion of a Separate Self, and the Liberation Unleashed Quotes which I've found very enlightening.
Some years ago, in 2016, I've had my first no-self experience during a self-inquiry. In that moment, it became completely obvious why there is no self, and never was, no one to cross the gateless gate, as thoughts do not get enlightened. In that moment it also became clear that there is no past, no future, just this eternal now. But this experience lasts for just some seconds, and after that, I couldn't believe so much in what I had just experienced, and my day-to-day experience didn't change much.
In 2018, I've graduated in the Finders Course, an incredible course given by Dr. Jeffrey Martin. There, I've made a shift to a new way of being, with much less mind chattering, more equanimity, and more vivid visual. But, although I'm apparently in what they call Location 4, I still have some identification, especially with thoughts. It's like some part of me has crossed the gate, and some part of me is still staring at it.
I'm familiar with many meditation, contemplation and self-inquiry techniques. I believe I have 500+ hours of meditation, although very irregular most of the time.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Verananda]

Hi nothingness,

welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Glad you made it here.
I'm Verananda and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
Should I call you nothingness or is there another name you would prefer?


Here are some arrangements we make to work together:
First I want to ask you to check out the Quote-Function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers. You can see here how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

During our conversation I will ask you a series of questions. For each, you will look at your own direct experience (DE) and answer with 100% honesty. I point. You look. You tell me what you see right there.

It is vital that you really do each “experiment” I provide, answer each question and look at your direct experience — in the present moment — instead of relying on analytical thought or memory.

During this guiding, please avoid any other teachings, spiritual books, writings, YouTube videos or talks. If you have a meditation practice, feel free to continue with it as usual. It is best to avoid analyzing, speculation and debate. The mind will try to create distraction.

Please make an effort to write here every day or at least every second. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking. If you are unable to do this on occasion, or you need more time for looking just let me know. I'll do the same for you.

Do you agree with this?

Looking forward to our talk,
Verananda

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

I'm deeply grateful for you taking the time to guide me.

Should I call you nothingness or is there another name you would prefer?

You can call me Nelson, my real name.

Do you agree with this?

Yes, completely. Let's do it.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

ok, so lets start :-)

I'm not seeking "amazing" experiences, ....

thats wonderful. this "chasing for bliss" is one of the most persistent myths in the enlightenment game ....

I also have read a lot of LU materials, ....

so you are familar with "direct experience", "thought", "thought content"?
tell me, what has changed while reading this?
and where do you feel you are stuck or something is not clear?

I still have some identification, especially with thoughts.

what is identification in direct experience?
can you find this one who is identified?

It's like some part of me has crossed the gate, and some part of me is still staring at it.

tell me more about this parts. what is free and what is staring?

love Verananda

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

Great!

so you are familar with "direct experience", "thought", "thought content"?
tell me, what has changed while reading this?
and where do you feel you are stuck or something is not clear?

Yes, I'm familiar with these concepts and was through LU guidance that some years ago I had a no-self experience, when, for a moment, it was obvious why there is no self, no one to cross the gate, as thoughts do not get enlightened. It was also completely clear that there is no past and no future. Is this level of clarity that I don't have now.

My experience today, after the persistent shift that I had last year, during the Finders Course, is something like this, I'm more or less this space, where sounds, visuals and sensations appear. Or to be more precise, there is this space, I can't even say that I'm that. But somehow I still believe that I'm the one behind Nelson's thoughts, and I still care, although a lot less than before, about Nelson's personal history.

In the morning, when I'm trimming my beard, sometimes I decide to step back and just watch the beard being done, without any thoughts about it. The experience is almost as if there is no me trimming the beard, just the trimming of the beard happening. But it still feels that the decision to step back is "mine", and I'm somehow observing the experience.

what is identification in direct experience?
can you find this one who is identified?

Identification in experience seems to be just thoughts passing by saying that this one that is observing is the one how is thinking, for example. And it is somehow believed because there is this assumption that the "I" that is observing cannot be found exactly because it is the one who is observing. Like "the eye cannot see the eye".

tell me more about this parts. what is free and what is staring?

It is like that some senses, like thinking, still have an "I" attached to it, while others, like hearing, do not. Thinking still seems to be done by a "me" that somehow is hidden. While sounds, on the other hand, seem just to appear in the experience.

Despite this identification, noticing during the day that the experience just have thoughts, visuals, and sensations, and that a me cannot be found doing any of this, always brings some relaxation to the experience.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

sounds good!
We will see through the remaining parts of the Illusion!

And it is somehow believed because there is this assumption that the "I" that is observing cannot be found exactly because it is the one who is observing.

The important question is: Is there realy an observer and something that is observed? Or does just perception happen? What can you find in direct experience?

It is like that some senses, like thinking, still have an "I" attached to it, while others, like hearing, do not.

When investigating this "I", what can you find? I guess you will find a lot of I-thoughts. Anything more?

Thinking still seems to be done by a "me" that somehow is hidden.

Is this more than a thought?
We do an experiment .....

Take some time and sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are
saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

I'm curious about what you find out!

warmly
verananda

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

That exercise is powerful! I will need more time to answer, ok?!

I will answer tomorrow!

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

ok, take your time, thats fine!
love verananda

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

The important question is: Is there realy an observer and something that is observed? Or does just perception happen? What can you find in direct experience?

Just perception happening, including the perception of thoughts saying that this perception is done by a "me".

When investigating this "I", what can you find? I guess you will find a lot of I-thoughts. Anything more?

Just these I-thoughts. The sensations seem to get mixed with these thoughts, making it more "real". I also noticed that some of these thoughts are louder, and others are very subtle.

Is this more than a thought?

Just a thought, with sensations. A very persistent thought.

Take some time and sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are
saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Thoughts arise from nowhere and go to nowhere, and there is no control over it. To be honest, I wouldn't know how to control it, I can't find any "buttons" over here.

Sometimes, during this investigation, some fear arises. The heart starts beating fast, and there is some tension in the belly, chest and throat.

There is also some frustration for nothing happening, despite noticing all of this.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

Thoughts arise from nowhere and go to nowhere, and there is no control over it. To be honest, I wouldn't know how to control it, I can't find any "buttons" over here.

yes, thats the truth .....

Sometimes, during this investigation, some fear arises. The heart starts beating fast, and there is some tension in the belly, chest and throat.

any I, me in there?
seems that this exercise was powerfull. Continue with this investigation during everyday life and report about

There is also some frustration for nothing happening, despite noticing all of this.

:-;
nothing happend ... except fear, heart beating, tension .....
but I guess expectation was for something other more spectacular and pleasant? ;-)
Expectations are the biggest obstacles ....

What was this frutration in direct experience?
Any I inside?

love verananda

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

any I, me in there?
seems that this exercise was powerfull. Continue with this investigation during everyday life and report about

No me to be found doing anything. Okay, I'll do it!

Although I can't find this me, the body-mind seems to be resisting in accepting it. Some thoughts saying "of course there is an I, you are doing it wrong", and there is tension in the body, especially in the belly, chest and throat. After asking myself if a thought (the "I') can resist anything, some peace came.

nothing happend ... except fear, heart beating, tension .....
but I guess expectation was for something other more spectacular and pleasant? ;-)
Expectations are the biggest obstacles ....

Yes, you are right, Verananda. I do expecting a freeing-pleasant-grand realization ¬¬ Usually, I catch myself waiting for something to happen after a new insight. Or to be more precise, thoughts about a me waiting for something to happen...

What was this frutration in direct experience?
Any I inside?

Thoughts about a frustrated me, and sensations in the body. No I to be found.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

great!

Although I can't find this me, the body-mind seems to be resisting in accepting it. Some thoughts saying "of course there is an I, you are doing it wrong", and there is tension in the body, especially in the belly, chest and throat. After asking myself if a thought (the "I') can resist anything, some peace came.

so it seems you found nothing than patterns of thought and sensations?
no I inside.
accepting what is and seeing it can't be different than it is now because it is what is brings peace .....

Yes, you are right, Verananda. I do expecting a freeing-pleasant-grand realization ¬¬ Usually, I catch myself waiting for something to happen after a new insight. Or to be more precise, thoughts about a me waiting for something to happen...

in this desire, any I inside? or again nothing more than patterns of thought and sensations?

waiting for something in future .... this past and future does they realy exist?
can anything happen "in future, in the next moment, ...."?

love verananda

[nothingness]

Hi Verananda,

so it seems you found nothing than patterns of thought and sensations?
no I inside.

Yes, no I inside. Sometimes it seems that I'm waiting for some sensations and thoughts to go away as a confirmation that a self doesn't exist. Or better, there are thoughts saying it, without no "I" behind. This is tricky.

in this desire, any I inside? or again nothing more than patterns of thought and sensations?

No just thoughts and they come from nowhere. No "I" behind.

waiting for something in future .... this past and future does they realy exist?
can anything happen "in future, in the next moment, ...."?

There is just now and, in the now, thoughts about the past or future. It is clear that, especially when thinking about the past or future, there is a projection of a "me" doing things. An idea.

A more subtle version of this idea is present almost all the time in the experience.

Best,
Nelson

[nothingness]

I can also see that thoughts could say anything, as they come from nowhere. They could say, "I, the Universe, blah blah blah" and it would be the same. And even what they say usually doesn't make sense in the experience, there is no one doing anything, just things happening. But this conclusion is almost purely intellectual.

Best,
Nelson

[Verananda]

Hi Nelson,

your answeres sound very clear ....

I can also see that thoughts could say anything, as they come from nowhere. They could say, "I, the Universe, blah blah blah" and it would be the same. And even what they say usually doesn't make sense in the experience, there is no one doing anything, just things happening. But this conclusion is almost purely intellectual.

which part of your answer "is almost purely intellectual."?

there is no one doing anything, just things happening

you can see this in direct experience, don't you? this is not intellectual?

even what they say usually doesn't make sense in the experience

making sense or not is an intellectual action. it makes sense that this is intellectual! ;-)
You see that thoughts come from nowhere, thats real seen, right?
are thoughts true? can any thought be true? Or is it just thought?

If thoughts come from nowhere, who or what makes decision?

love verananda