Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

[Verananda]

Sometimes I just can't perceive any difference / boundary / barrier separating "me" from the world, sometimes this feeling of being a separate entity returns.

thats ok. look . maybe you can see what happens before seperation comes back?
but otherwise do not bother you. It finds its way in its time.

I've been doing the experiments all these days. You were right, perhaps I'm still looking for an experience, a change of state, and somehow it still comes and goes.

yes. dont wait for the fireworks.
just do the experiment, look what you find. answere the questions and report!
very simple :-)
no effort!

love verananda

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

thats ok. look . maybe you can see what happens before seperation comes back?
but otherwise do not bother you. It finds its way in its time.

Silence happens, contentment. Just perceiving what is. This is what happens. No future, no past.

just do the experiment, look what you find. answere the questions and report!

I can't find anything special! Just raw data so to speak. Information from the senses. No judgement.

What is the actual experience of the body?

Weight, a tool to be able and relate to the physical world. Something to take care of, like an instrument.

And yet another thought / question: How do "you" "realize" the fact you "got it" / "understood it" / "realized it?" / "saw it". I'm using those words for the lack of more precise terms. Is it like the bodily sensations disappear? Is it a perception change? Is it an absence of suffering? Just acceptance of what's happening? I know, I know, there is no "you" to be aware of these changes, so, what is it like?

Still doing the rest of the experiments / questions... Will report back...

Love,

Matrod

[Verananda]

A hint on the way ( I will answer the rest later)

What is the actual experience of the body?
Weight, a tool to be able and relate to the physical world. Something to take care of, like an instrument.

This is a lot of thought. Even " weight" needs thought ton translate experience in concept.
Stay with the pure perception, curios like a little child, without help of thought and old concepts.
Do the exercise from 18th dez again ....

"Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images: Can it be known...."

Report and answer each question I gave you there!

Relax and have fun with it
Love verananda

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

here part 2:

Silence happens, contentment. Just perceiving what is. This is what happens. No future, no past.

I can't find anything special! Just raw data so to speak. Information from the senses. No judgement.

Thats wondeful.

And yet another thought / question: How do "you" "realize" the fact you "got it" / "understood it" / "realized it?" / "saw it". I'm using those words for the lack of more precise terms.

It is known when it is absolutly real seen not conceptual clear, that this "you" that wants to "get it" is nothing more than another nothing special thought. An illusion.

Is it like the bodily sensations disappear?

why should they?
Life continues. It dont need an "I". No change because it never existed. It is seen as what it is: an illusion.

Is it a perception change? Is it an absence of suffering? Just acceptance of what's happening?

Too much thought about. It is not about seeking a state. It is about seeing what is. Very simple. And it is different for each one. So you will see when you see.

I know, I know, there is no "you" to be aware of these changes, so, what is it like?

It is not about kowing. It is about 150% real seeing. That makes the difference. And that are all our experiments and pointings about.

love verananda

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

Thanks for your answers! I'm still doing the experiments and will report back soon.

Love,

Matrod.

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

Another update. I've been doing the experiments, nonetheless, several things happen:

Regarding boundaries, they are not apparent anymore: body and clothing, body and environment, weight, volume (difficult to determine), but the actual experience of the body comes and goes, again, the word is "weight", something in space. I'm finding the process of not having any conceptualizations very difficult. If I reduce the experience to what the senses transmit to me, it is just sound, taste, smell, touch, images or colors...

I feel stuck, the concept of "I" is still very strong...

Love,

Matrod

[Verananda]

it is just sound, taste, smell, touch, images or colors...

yes, thats the truth.
the rest is thought and concept.
this does not have to dissappear (can you change thoughts? any control?)
just seen as what it is.
what remains is sound, taste, smell, touch, images or colors .....
even thoughts. but thoughts are just thoughts.

I feel stuck, the concept of "I" is still very strong...

if there are no boundaries ... where is "I"?
is this "concept of "I" " more than a thought? (if so, tell me what you find).
can you change or control thought?


love verananda

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

this does not have to dissappear (can you change thoughts? any control?)
just seen as what it is.
what remains is sound, taste, smell, touch, images or colors .....
even thoughts. but thoughts are just thoughts.

Of course I can't control thoughts. Yesterday I had an interesting experience. For the first time ever in my life, fear of death was absent. I was watching a movie regarding the last days of a person, and it occurred to me that death was something abstract and distant. It was a peaceful sensation... A thought, of course.

if there are no boundaries ... where is "I"?
is this "concept of "I" " more than a thought? (if so, tell me what you find).
can you change or control thought?

The identification of this "I" thought with the physical body or vehicle is still strong, even being a thought without form, weight or identity, why?

As I said, no control whatsoever over passing thoughts, they just behave on their own terms, so to speak. And no, the concept of "I" is just a thought, so again, why is this thought having such a strong bond to the physical body / vehicle? Where does this come from?

Love,

Matrod.

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

Yesterday I had an interesting experience.

thats great. so something is changing .....

The identification of this "I" thought with the physical body or vehicle is still strong, even being a thought without form, weight or identity, why?

This "why?" is again thought ... the answer would be more thought .....
a simple answer is: It is long trained and beliefed, almost the whole life?
but what is wrong with it when it it seen as a illusion?
the image of the mirrage in the dessert still remains even if the illusuion is seen through.

what we can do is some investigaion in this "physical body ".
Is this "body" more than a concept?
What can you realy perceive of it?
Ask this again and again during everyday life .....

love
verananda

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

Sorry for my late reply! I'm still here, investigating...

but what is wrong with it when it it seen as a illusion?
the image of the mirrage in the dessert still remains even if the illusuion is seen through.

Nothing is right or wrong, it seems. Things just are...

Is this "body" more than a concept?

The body is essentially a concept. I can perceive it clearly when I'm still, about to fall asleep or just when I wake up. During the day, it is a bit more difficut to perceive it as a concept and the word "weight" comes to mind...

What can you realy perceive of it?

Nothing really. Just a vehicle to experience the physical world, a source of endless desires and needs... I know, this is just more thought...

I'm keeping at it. Will continue to report.

Love,

Matrod.

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

The body is essentially a concept. I can perceive it clearly when I'm still, about to fall asleep or just when I wake up. During the day, it is a bit more difficut to perceive it as a concept

yes, but and in fact we can't perceive the body as a concept. You can perceive different sensations. You can see parts of the "body". When attention is focused on it it is more obvious. While doing other things, working etc it is often not in the focus. And you can perceive thoughts about a body. What is real?

the word "weight" comes to mind...

yes. it comes into mind, that means thought. What is realy perceived? Weight is a label. What is perceived?

What can you realy perceive of it?

Nothing really. Just a vehicle to experience the physical world, a source of endless desires and needs... I know, this is just more thought...

It is important not to end in nihilism at this point. Check out: what can be perceived? is the perception "real"? And what is a concept? Thoughts about ....? Look at it and sort it a bit ....! And keep it simple.


love verananda

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

how are you?
do you want to continue?

love Verananda

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

Doing well. Sorry for my delayed answer. Got entangled in life. I want to continue!

Regarding the experiment, I find a bit difficult just to experience life as a flow of physical responses, I guess it is because my life-long conditioning in the other direction, just labeling what happens with concepts, words, ideas...

Nonetheless, practice is bearing fruit. It is now a bit easier to see what is instead of my ideas / concepts / opinions of what's happening. Not quite there, but practicing every single moment.

Love,

Matrod.

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

Regarding the experiment, I find a bit difficult just to experience life as a flow of physical responses, I guess it is because my life-long conditioning in the other direction, just labeling what happens with concepts, words, ideas...

what we do here is looking for thuth. What is sensation, what is concepts, words, ideas (=thoughts), what is heard, seen ....
and we look if there can be found anything more inside like an I or me.

So have you found a "body" or is "body" a lable for ....?

Have you found any I inside?

Love Verananda

[Verananda]

still entangled in life ...?