Hi from Colombia. Stuck in the conceptual understanding of liberation and not the real experience

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

No control whatsoever over the mind or the thought producing engine...

yes. wonderful. thats it.
any other chance? any backdoor? any exception?

Any other suggestions on experiencing life's direct experience as it is? (I know, it is the mind trying to "grasp" the concept and categorize it again... More thoughts...)

so do you have any control over thoughts like this popping up or any free will to create a solution?
if not why dont relax and watch life flowing?

I have no interest to keep seeking anymore.

yes. thats a big change isnt it?
Change comes by its own when seeing truth, seeing life at is is.
It needs some surrender.
Surrender comes by its own when seeing truth, seeing there is no free will.

Stabilization is the word... But as you said nobody is doing anything. Is just thought after thought after thought... No will. Just life flowing.

Thats importend. Stabilization comes with looking again and again and again in everyday life. Thats your next job! Please report daily what stays same and what changes!
we have to look in every corner! So old beliefs about controlling and free will and decision making disappear by themselves by seeing truth again and again.

love verananda

[Matrod]

No control whatsoever over the mind or the thought producing engine...

yes. wonderful. thats it.
any other chance? any backdoor? any exception?

No other chance. No backdoors so far. No exceptions. Just thoughts arising from nothingness and disappearing into nothingness...

Change comes by its own when seeing truth, seeing life at is is.
It needs some surrender.
Surrender comes by its own when seeing truth, seeing there is no free will.

Surrender is indeed important. It is seeing that is pointless to make any effort, since life goes on with or without it! And there's nobody to make effort.

Thats importend. Stabilization comes with looking again and again and again in everyday life. Thats your next job! Please report daily what stays same and what changes!
we have to look in every corner! So old beliefs about controlling and free will and decision making disappear by themselves by seeing truth again and again.

Today this thought appeared: Things happen when needed, when some action is necessary. We eat when we're hungry. We sleep when we're tired. We breathe effortlessly and so on. No effort whatsoever. Nonetheless, the reaction to thoughts are still very strong. As I said before, perhaps I was waiting for something spectacular to happen, like a sudden and deep silence in my head, this voice disappearing for good. An experience. A definitive cessation of physical suffering...

But no, life is almost the same. Still physical distress, still strong reactions to thoughts, nonetheless a subtle difference is present: something that gently reminds me those are only thoughts, nothing to do with somebody, nothing "personal". It is laughable now to see how this so called free will made this body to purchase / pursue / worry / seek endless stuff. There's a void happening now, a sudden free space that was occupied before by all these things. It feels weird just to experience life as it is, without any direction or motivation. Some would call this depression, but there is no worry or sadness. Just an empty, neutral space. Reminded me of an experience from long ago when I decided to shave my head. It was very strange to feel the coldness of the pillow in my head with no hair to "protect it"...

Will definitely continue to see truth again and again and report back.

With love,

Matrod.

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

It is laughable now to see how this so called free will made this body to purchase / pursue / worry / seek endless stuff. There's a void happening now, a sudden free space that was occupied before by all these things.

Yes. Enlightenment has more to do with inner silence. Less with inner fireworks. And often it comes along with laughing when truth is seen.

It feels weird just to experience life as it is, without any direction or motivation. Some would call this depression, but there is no worry or sadness. Just an empty, neutral space.

Well, there is an important difference between depression and awakening. Depression is with worry and sadness a a lot of dark and hopeless thought, as you wrote. The liberated way of life can be neutral, nothing special or full of joy and bliss. nothing to achive, nothing wrong with one or the other. Just life flowing by its own. No desire to achive a special state. All the overhead drops off. Thats freedom.

Will definitely continue to see truth again and again and report back.

woderful!

love verananda

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

Enlightenment has more to do with inner silence. Less with inner fireworks. And often it comes along with laughing when truth is seen.

No lasting laughing so far. Focused on just seeing what is. Inner silence is reluctant as well to appear and remain. More voices in the head (thoughts, of course, coming and going). It seems they are trying hard not to be silenced / ignored...

There is an important difference between depression and awakening. Depression is with worry and sadness a a lot of dark and hopeless thought, as you wrote.

As mentioned, thoughts are trying their best to worry / make this body sad. They still succeed sometimes...

The liberated way of life can be neutral, nothing special or full of joy and bliss. nothing to achieve, nothing wrong with one or the other. Just life flowing by its own. No desire to achieve a special state. All the overhead drops off. Thats freedom

This is the most interesting part. It has been more a neutral experience sprinkled with some fleeting moments of profound contentment and joy when experiencing what is. Taking it with no previous concepts, it all goes back again to doing whatever is necessary at the present moment. Nonetheless, thoughts about boredom appear recurrently, it seems the void is trying to be occupied by thinking about what's going on (job, current occupations, the future). Still looking at these thoughts as thoughts, nonetheless, their influence / inertia is still strong. They come and go, reluctant to leave permanently. It is like they know how to push this body's buttons to keep the spotlight over them... Any ideas?

Love from Colombia,

Matrod.

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod

Any ideas?

This question shows that there is "someone" who wants things (thoughts) different as they are?
Look at this "someone" (instead of looking at the things to change).
What can you find?

It is like they know how to push this body's buttons to keep the spotlight over them...

look in direkt experience what realy happens and report.
Can a thought realy push a button?
Can a thought do anything?
Do you have any controll over thought (remember our experiment)?
If not, does it make sense to try to change thoughts?
Would it be anything else than another thought?

love verananda

[Matrod]

Any ideas?

This question shows that there is "someone" who wants things (thoughts) different as they are?
Look at this "someone" (instead of looking at the things to change).
What can you find?

I "found" two "things": A bunch of concepts and ideas posing as "me" that is the one wanting to change things as they are. And the second one is the fact of there is no "glue" between these ideas and concepts, so it is a wonderful contradiction... There is nobody wanting to change anything. The inertia of the bodily reactions is still very strong, as a result of believing in all those ideas and concepts for a long time now...

It is like they know how to push this body's buttons to keep the spotlight over them...

look in direkt experience what realy happens and report.

As I said, it is just inertia, a way of reacting, a learned behavior... Imitation of others... Nothing substantial.

Can a thought realy push a button?

Nope

Can a thought do anything?

Nope

Do you have any controll over thought (remember our experiment)?

Not at all

If not, does it make sense to try to change thoughts?

It makes no sense at all

Would it be anything else than another thought?

There is nothing else aside of more and more thoughts. Perhaps it is just a matter of complete surrender and observing the habits (thoughts) happening just come and go... As well as expectations... Just thoughts coming and going...

Love from Colombia,

Matrod

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

in the beginning you were looking for "stability in the selfless self state".
So after seen this truth, is it 100% real seen true that there is no I no me no seperate Self and that there never was one?
Can this seen truth vanish? Can this illusion ever be believed again?
Is it a question of "state"?

love verananda

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

in the beginning you were looking for "stability in the selfless self state".
So after seen this truth, is it 100% real seen true that there is no I no me no seperate Self and that there never was one?
Can this seen truth vanish? Can this illusion ever be believed again?
Is it a question of "state"?

Funny thing is, as I said from the start, this inner silence and complete acceptation of what is comes and goes. It seems that when the attention is 100% on what's happening, the Selfless Self state abides more easily, but it goes away when the attention level decreases, which happens frequently out of habit...

Again, the mind is trying to grasp the concepts, the thoughts coming and going. It is clear the "I" has never existed, nonetheless, the illusion is strong. Will keep investigating...

Love,

Matrod.

[Verananda]

It seems that when the attention is 100% on what's happening, the Selfless Self state abides more easily, but it goes away when the attention level decreases, which happens frequently out of habit...

Again, the mind is trying to grasp the concepts, the thoughts coming and going. It is clear the "I" has never existed, nonetheless, the illusion is strong. Will keep investigating...

You are still looking for a state. States come and go. It is not a question of state.
The illusion does not disappear but it is seen as what it is: an illusion.
Then the movement stops.
Like a fatamorgana in the dessert.
After it is seen through you wouldn waste energy to go there.
The image of the oasis is still there, it does not disappear.
So it is one of the pitfall to belief any thoughts have to disappear or any state has to be stabilized, reached or vanish.
This hopeless try to kill the movie of the illusion sometimes is the residual that drives the game.
It is enought to see the truth in it.
Changes may occur afterwards or not.
Look, but don't care about. Relax. Enjoy the movie.

Love verananda

[Matrod]

You are still looking for a state. States come and go. It is not a question of state.

Right. I supposed this is because conditioning and too much reading!

The illusion does not disappear but it is seen as what it is: an illusion.
Then the movement stops.
Like a fatamorgana in the dessert.
After it is seen through you wouldn waste energy to go there.
The image of the oasis is still there, it does not disappear.
So it is one of the pitfall to belief any thoughts have to disappear or any state has to be stabilized, reached or vanish.
This hopeless try to kill the movie of the illusion sometimes is the residual that drives the game.
It is enought to see the truth in it.
Changes may occur afterwards or not.
Look, but don't care about. Relax. Enjoy the movie.

Agree, nonetheless, why is that sometimes the mind is submerged in this deep and profound silence and the appreciation of what is happens spontaneously and effortlessly and some other times, it does not?

And the final question: Has the illusion been perceived by this body? Nothing has really changed in the perception of reality, aside of having clarity about several "concepts"... More and more thoughts arising...

Bear with "me", it seems we are up to something!

With love,

Matrod.

[Verananda]

ght. I supposed this is because conditioning and too much reading!

Yes. It it the pitfall for most of the seekers.
If you never had this bliss and peace you want it.
And if you had it you want it back.
And often this wanting is the last mindedness.

Agree, nonetheless, why is that sometimes the mind is submerged in this deep and profound silence and the appreciation of what is happens spontaneously and effortlessly and some other times, it does not?

Because States come and go. It is the game of Maya, the illusion.

And the final question: Has the illusion been perceived by this body? Nothing has really changed in the perception of reality, aside of having clarity about several "concepts"... More and more thoughts arising...

Body is a concept. The bodily sensations are perceived. Not the other way. We will do some looking for truth in direct experience together. Beyond concepts. Within concepts there is no way out.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes. Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images: Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume? In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form? Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly? What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body? Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.


Love verananda

[Verananda]

Wrong auto correction. Right version:

And often this wanting is the last hindrance

[Matrod]

Hi verananda,

I'm still doing the experiments you suggested, bear with me for a little bit longer. No conclusive answer so far...

Love,

Matrod.

[Verananda]

Hi Matrod,

how are you doing?

Share your findings, it dont have to be finished.
We can walk together .....

love Verananda

[Matrod]

Hi again verananda,

Share your findings, it dont have to be finished.
We can walk together .....

I was thinking exactly the same this morning! I've been doing the experiments all these days. You were right, perhaps I'm still looking for an experience, a change of state, and somehow it still comes and goes. Sometimes I just can't perceive any difference / boundary / barrier separating "me" from the world, sometimes this feeling of being a separate entity returns. This is the reason for me writing the other day that the results were not conclusive, and they still aren't...

I feel like walking in circles... So close and yet so far... Thanks for being there. Let's continue this journey together!

Love,

Matrod