Not "Getting It"

[amrita]

PIcking up on one point from your response,

Can attention be controlled? Do you choose where your attention is just focused or is attention simply doing its own thing? See if you can watch your attentive process. Are you choosing to focus on particular obects or thoughts or is it just happening of its own accord?

Peace

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita,

Can attention be controlled? Do you choose where your attention is just focused or is attention simply doing its own thing? See if you can watch your attentive process. Are you choosing to focus on particular obects or thoughts or is it just happening of its own accord?

This was a little tricky to assess. When trying to watch this, there are a lot of thoughts about what it being looked at or focused in on, muddling the experience and making it seem like there is a me doing it. But when the mind seems to forget that attention is being watched, glimpses can be had that show that there isn't a controller experienced who is carrying out its wishes on what is paid attention to.

There are a lot of thoughts commenting on what to look at and what to avoid looking at, how long to look at something (not too much eye contact, don't look at that person because they're already embarrassed talking in front of the group, etc.), but there is a lot of time where there is no thought at all on what attention is paid to. Where that is most obvious is where there's a quick reflex to look in the direction of a loud noise or something that really grabs the attention.

Given the lack of control over attention, how is it that I have even been going through this experiment of seeing if there is a separation in sight, for example? If I'm not doing, thinking, paying attention to anything, who or what have you been having a conversation to and making progress in getting me through this destructive process, as we called it? :)

Thank you,
Bayou

[amrita]

Hey,

When you say,

Given the lack of control over attention, how is it that I have even been going through this experiment of seeing if there is a separation in sight, for example? If I'm not doing, thinking, paying attention to anything, who or what have you been having a conversation to and making progress in getting me through this destructive process, as we called it? :)
[/quote

I agree that this process, experience, life, whatever you want to call it is very mysterious. Is it possible to let go of the desire to want to know or control and just be open to experience? And what is experience? Sensations, Colours, Sounds, etc and lots of thoughts. What does life feel like when you are in DE rather than being caught up or identified with thoughts?

[Bayou1]

Hello,

I agree that this process, experience, life, whatever you want to call it is very mysterious. Is it possible to let go of the desire to want to know or control and just be open to experience? And what is experience? Sensations, Colours, Sounds, etc and lots of thoughts. What does life feel like when you are in DE rather than being caught up or identified with thoughts?

Mysterious is a good word for it :) Yes, it is possible to let go of the desire to understand. It's tough for me to do that, as I have always been a big thinker and planner related to pretty much everything in life. I'll definitely try to let these questions that don't relate to DE in any way just go on by.

Yes, all that experience is is just senses and thought. Just somehow being in DE is a more relaxed and calm place to be. A place where one doesn't rely on thoughts to try to make everything happen. It feels like the sense of being a doer is reducing a little now, and I'm worrying a little bit less as well, knowing that stuff will happen that will happen, and stressing and trying to plan what to say and do ahead of time won't end up doing anything positive.

I still have been getting stressed, annoyed, and impatient from time to time, though; not sure if this is because I'm getting caught up in thoughts or this just continues to happen?

Thanks again,
Bayou

[amrita]

This sounds very positive,

Yes, all that experience is is just senses and thought. Just somehow being in DE is a more relaxed and calm place to be. A place where one doesn't rely on thoughts to try to make everything happen. It feels like the sense of being a doer is reducing a little now, and I'm worrying a little bit less as well, knowing that stuff will happen that will happen,

Can a thought ever make anything happen? I know thought likes to make itself seem powerful and it can control things but can it really? What power does thought really have? Things keep happening, decisions get made, life keeps flowing without thoughts driving actions.

In terms of getting stressed and annoyed this process of inquiry into seeing the truth of anatta or no-self is the first step into a new way of living if you like. In Buddhist terms this inquiry corresponds to the first 3 fetters. There are 10 fetters in total to complete liberation. Fetters 4/5 relate to anger and desire so its really in that inquiry that we would look at anger, ill will, cravings, anxiety etc. I hope that makes sense and feel free to ask me about that. There are many other paths that people follow here so I guess it comes down to you and your particular style and interests. I'm just saying what has worked for me and what informs my approach to this work.

Love to you and big kudos for keeping going. I would like to reassure you that it is really worth it when you finally get it :)

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita!

Can a thought ever make anything happen? I know thought likes to make itself seem powerful and it can control things but can it really? What power does thought really have? Things keep happening, decisions get made, life keeps flowing without thoughts driving actions.

Most of the time, stuff just happens without thought. Typing this, for example, it seems that there is a voice / thought in my head reading the words as they are typed, but the thought isn't preceding the words (like planning out the next sentence ahead of time and then typing it up). Also, the thoughts aren't controlling the fingers and hands on the keyboard, specifically giving instruction to the body on how to move the fingers, which ones to move when, etc. Typing is just going on.

Other times, thought can seem to happen before or during something going on, making it a little trickier to exactly which came first - the chicken or the egg. Is there a way to become absolutely sure on this? Taking it back a step, because we don't write or control thoughts, even if thought controlled actions, we don't control that which could theoretically control the actions, so there still is no personal control over actions. Does this sound right to you?

In terms of getting stressed and annoyed this process of inquiry into seeing the truth of anatta or no-self is the first step into a new way of living if you like.

There are many other paths that people follow here so I guess it comes down to you and your particular style and interests. I'm just saying what has worked for me and what informs my approach to this work.

Wow - I had no idea that there is more beyond this gateless gate. The other back-and-forths on the forum that I have read never mentioned anything like that. I'd definitely be interested in continuing on once we're through this.

Love to you and big kudos for keeping going. I would like to reassure you that it is really worth it when you finally get it :)

Thank you again!!! You are a saint for volunteering so much time dealing with so many people on this. It's amazing that this is so unknown, that so few people have thought through this. I'm beyond dedicated to "getting this" and will do what it takes and what you recommend to get there. Anything between messages with you that you would recommend?

Talk to you soon! Thank you again,
Bayou

[amrita]

Hey man thats cool. Its a genuine pleasure guiding you.

My advice would be to continue to explore DE as much as you can. If you have time and space look at whether there is anything being added to what is experienced. In terms of visually seeing what else is added to what is seen? Is there any sense of a seperate observer?

Likewise with sensations learn to embrace them. Welcome them into experience as clouds or patterns of energy that form and pass through. Dont try to push them away or resist them in any form. Instead, look into them. Does any sensation have any sense of self within it?

All that is and can ever be is here in this moment happening right now. Where else could the self be? Thoughts appear in direct experience but the contents of those thoughts are only symbols of what is seen, purely conceptual, shadows of reality, removed. In amongst this seemingly endless succession of thoughts of plans, memories, opinions etc.are 'I thoughts', thoughts about 'me' and what' I' want, hate etc. and these appear to predominate and give a strong sense of self.
Examine thoughts for any sign of selfhood or I-ness. What makes these thoughts different from other types of thoughts? When you have a thought "this is me" or "this is mine" look into what is happening? Are there sensations present? A contraction of energy in the chest or face maybe? And if you find any thoughts/emotional reactions that seem to be you or belong to you examine them in terms of sensations, images, thoughts. Can a self be found in any of them?

My last peice of advice is to relax and learn to enjoy this deep looking into direct experience :)

Good luck

Amrita x

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita,

Thank you for the great advice! There was a lot to ponder in your email, but here are some of the key items in my mind and my reactions:

If you have time and space look at whether there is anything being added to what is experienced. In terms of visually seeing what else is added to what is seen? Is there any sense of a seperate observer?

Individually inspecting the senses, there isn't a sense of there being anything added or separate from them; they're all just there. As far as there being a separate observer, it's hard to think back and remember of there being any unless thought comes in to somehow hint at my position compared to something else (the object I see is a little in front of me and to the left...).

Does any sensation have any sense of self within it?

I think that there is still the sense of sensations happening to a me. I'm cold, I'm hungry, etc. However, when I remember to check the experience of those sensations, there is just the sensation and no me separate from it.

In amongst this seemingly endless succession of thoughts of plans, memories, opinions etc.are 'I thoughts', thoughts about 'me' and what' I' want, hate etc. and these appear to predominate and give a strong sense of self.

This is a good and true point. Commentary on something happening gives the feeling of that thing happening out there and me being back here judging, when everything including the commentary is just happening without a discernible separate thing from the sensations, thoughts, etc.

My last peice of advice is to relax and learn to enjoy this deep looking into direct experience :)

I definitely have been enjoying this process; it has been eye opening!!!


I've been thinking and just relaxing into the feeling of some things lately, particularly stuff like some of what Rupert Spira says on how our experience 100% of the time is not of being a body, thoughts, or any of that but rather that we are aware. Being aware is primary; being a body or thinking is secondary and only known through the first. On a video online, I heard someone say something along the lines of, "do you know the body or does the body know you?" That really pointed me to which is primary in experience.


Thanks again! I can't recall if you mentioned what country you live in. Whereabouts in the world are you?
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi,

Im in England, which is currently imploding with the insanity of the brexit fiasco! where are you?

Just a quick one tonight :)

I think that there is still the sense of sensations happening to a me. I'm cold, I'm hungry, etc. However, when I remember to check the experience of those sensations, there is just the sensation and no me separate from it.

When you say "im cold" or "I'm hungry" are they actual sensations or are they thoughts attached to particular sensations? What are the actual sensations? Can they be experienced seperately from thought? if so, what are the sensations actually like? Do you exist within these sensations?

love

amrita

[Bayou1]

Hello!

Im in England, which is currently imploding with the insanity of the brexit fiasco! where are you?

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of drama around that, especially now! I'm in Michigan - born and raised.

When you say "im cold" or "I'm hungry" are they actual sensations or are they thoughts attached to particular sensations? What are the actual sensations?

"I'm cold" (which I actually am now; Michigan is easing into winter as we speak!) is a label for a sensation. Originally, as children, we know the sensation and eventually learn the word that we slap on it - being cold. A label can only be a thought, so yes, they are just thoughts attached to the sensations.

The actual sensations themselves can't really be described without using more labels. "Being in pain" could be described as a significant "pressure," "pinching," "stabbing / throbbing feeling," etc. - but all of those things (pressure and so on) are just more labels for the sensations.

Can they be experienced seperately from thought? if so, what are the sensations actually like?

Yes, sensations can be experienced without thought, but without those thought / word labels, they can't even be described!

Do you exist within these sensations?

There is no me or controller within sensations. Rather, the sensations just happen within awareness, as does everything else that is or can be experienced.


Thank you! Enjoy watching the news (the "tele," as I think you call it on your side of the pond) related to Brexit :-D
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi,

Apologies for delay. I have been busy with work so I can get ready for a break at Xmas.

I like what you are pointing to when you say,

Originally, as children, we know the sensation and eventually learn the word that we slap on it - being cold. A label can only be a thought, so yes, they are just thoughts attached to the sensations.

The actual sensations themselves can't really be described without using more labels. "Being in pain" could be described as a significant "pressure," "pinching," "stabbing / throbbing feeling," etc. - but all of those things (pressure and so on) are just more labels for the sensations.

Yes that is exactly right! Sensations themselves are indescribable and labels (thoughts) only point to other thoughts. Is it possible to simply relax into sensations without applying thought? Without labelling or judging?

Likewise can you relax into what is seen? Images and colours? Can you relax into sensations and colours? Without labelling thoughts what is actually experienced?


Love

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita,

Not a problem at all regarding how busy work has been for you. Hopefully, things quiet down a bit soon, in advance of Christmas.

Yes that is exactly right! Sensations themselves are indescribable and labels (thoughts) only point to other thoughts. Is it possible to simply relax into sensations without applying thought? Without labelling or judging?

It is possible to do this. Hard to "remember" to, of course, but since your last message, I have been trying to do this throughout the day. Stuff still happens and gets done without the thoughts! I continue trying to watch for any signs of a "doer" and have not yet come across proof of one's existence.

Likewise can you relax into what is seen? Images and colours? Can you relax into sensations and colours? Without labelling thoughts what is actually experienced?

I've been trying this out over the course of today. Being at work, though, it seems like the mind works in overdrive. So, this hasn't been the easiest to do, but when the experiment is up and running, things do seem more peaceful.


I've also been thinking a good bit on the nature of experience. I've probably said this a number of times before in varying ways, but all we can experience is consciousness - by default and definition. If there is a doer of any sort pulling the strings, it's outside of consciousness. We can feel sensations and thoughts that we're doing things, but none of the mechanics of actually doing them (none of the instructing the body what muscles to move to walk, for example). Using the illustration that Rupert Spira seems to a good bit, that of a screen, it really is that our experience is that of a TV screen. All we know, see, and experience is stuff on the screen. As a TV screen, we can guess that there's something behind the scenes putting all that content on us, but we don't experience it first-hand.


Talk to you soon, and thanks again,
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say,

I've also been thinking a good bit on the nature of experience. I've probably said this a number of times before in varying ways, but all we can experience is consciousness - by default and definition. If there is a doer of any sort pulling the strings, it's outside of consciousness

Is this a *belief* about things or can it be experienced in direct experience? Can *consciousness* be experienced seperately from what is experienced ie colours, sensations, sounds ect?

Best

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hello,

Is this a *belief* about things or can it be experienced in direct experience?

Hmm - I think there is an element of belief for me; I'm "intellectualizing" it a bit (getting away from DE in that regard). In direct experience, though, the lack of a doer can be experienced.

Can *consciousness* be experienced seperately from what is experienced ie colours, sensations, sounds ect?

I would answer "no" to this, that we can only experience or know consciousness by what it presents - colors, sensations, and so on, but then, in silence with eyes closed and sitting quietly, there generally aren't any perceptions going on but consciousness is still on and seemingly waiting for something to report. That's kind of a blank slate type experience, though.

Thank you,
Bayou

[amrita]

Can you say a little more about this blank slate experience?

I would answer "no" to this, that we can only experience or know consciousness by what it presents - colors, sensations, and so on, but then, in silence with eyes closed and sitting quietly, there generally aren't any perceptions going on but consciousness is still on and seemingly waiting for something to report. That's kind of a blank slate type experience, though.

Is there really a "blank slate"? Are there not sensations going on within this experience? Is the sense of space a type of sensation for instance?

And lastly, where else can we be other than in DE?

Love

Amrita