Not "Getting It"

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita,

When you are reading this are "you" making the reading happen or are the words simply appearing in awareness? Is there a seperate observer to what is being observed?

Reading appears to just happen, without thinking over the words, how they're pronounced, or what they mean. As far as if there is a separate observer from the words themselves, none can be found in sight.

Likewise, when you type your reply: is there a self that chooses the words or do the words appear? Is there a "self" that is doign the typing or does typing simply occur?

Typing happens without thought about each finger movement. As far as what words are chosen to type, there usually is a voice in my head that almost reads off the words as they are being typed, but not before as if the hands were recording thoughts' dictation.

Related to this, when in a conversation, I have been noticing how what I say just comes out without thought putting together the sentences ahead of time. Sometimes, I'll just be talking to someone and seemingly just observing what I'm saying and thinking, "I have no idea where this is coming from!"


Over the past 5 days or so, I've really been paying attention to the lack of observer from the observed and have found that pretty powerful in somewhat shifting perspective from being outside of the scene to being an integral part of it all. It's very interesting. I can also run through the other senses in the same non-separation way, but sight always seems the most available and strongly identified with.

Thanks again,
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi Bayou,

How are you getting on? Has there been any changes or shifts in the way you experience things?

Since you have identified the sense of sight as the most strongly identified with lets explore that a bit futher.

If you look at an object, any object will do, is there any sense of a *self* or *I* inside you looking out at an object outside of you? Isn't there just an open-ended image (of colour and light)? Is there any part of you that is making this image appear or is it simply appearing in awareness?

Best

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita,

How are you getting on? Has there been any changes or shifts in the way you experience things?

"Viewing" the world hasn't 100% of the time changed in how it works, but there are a number of occasions daily when I remember to check in and confirm again a lack of separation in sight. This usually is followed by thoughts around everything being just an aspect of consciousness and then I feel a bit relaxed afterwards. Is this periodic remembering, so to speak, a normal step on this path or progression? Or does this somehow have to be integrated completely throughout the day for a deep, permanent shift?

If you look at an object, any object will do, is there any sense of a *self* or *I* inside you looking out at an object outside of you? Isn't there just an open-ended image (of colour and light)? Is there any part of you that is making this image appear or is it simply appearing in awareness?

Looking at any regular old thing doesn't usually bring up a sense of self looking at it, but there is more likely to be thoughts of the object being a "part of me" if I'm seeing part of the body, such as looking down at the keyboard where my hands are currently typing. The hands, of course, are just color in a single visual field, though, but some rogue thoughts are in the mix as well ;-) In regards to the last question, I do not do anything to make an image appear - sight is just there.


Thank you!
Bayou

[amrita]

Hey,

in response to this question I can only speak for myself as I am sure that many others have experienced this differently.

"Viewing" the world hasn't 100% of the time changed in how it works, but there are a number of occasions daily when I remember to check in and confirm again a lack of separation in sight. This usually is followed by thoughts around everything being just an aspect of consciousness and then I feel a bit relaxed afterwards. Is this periodic remembering, so to speak, a normal step on this path or progression? Or does this somehow have to be integrated completely throughout the day for a deep, permanent shift?

I think this is perfectly normal progression. If you keep looking there is a kind of tipping point where you spontaneously spend more time in DE and it eventually integrates into the way you experience life, rather than being identified with thoughts and thought stories if that makes any kind of sense.

Here are some more questions for you to examine...

Does the past exist? Can the past be found in DE?

Does the future exist? Can the future be found in DE?

Can anything resembling the present moment be found in DE?

Love

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hello!

I think this is perfectly normal progression. If you keep looking there is a kind of tipping point where you spontaneously spend more time in DE and it eventually integrates into the way you experience life, rather than being identified with thoughts and thought stories if that makes any kind of sense.

It seems like on days where I'm really busy at work, for example, remembering to check the lack of separation is really few and far between. Outside of work, when my mind may have a bit more room to think on other things, then there is this checking-in on a more frequent basis. Is that normal as well or cause for concern? I wish there was a way to remember more often in the hustle and bustle of life...

Does the past exist? Can the past be found in DE?

Does the future exist? Can the future be found in DE?

This was something that I came across in my non-duality readings, and I remember that when I did, it was a big "aha" moment for me. I realized that in direct experience, there is nothing but right this moment. The senses only register what's going on at the moment, leaving out the prospect of them picking up on anything in the past or future. Thoughts may be about the past or future (and generally are...), but even those thoughts are happening now. Memories or thoughts about the future may appear to rise up with sensations that make them feel extra real, but all sensations are also only happening now.

Can anything resembling the present moment be found in DE?

In direct experience, we experience sensations, perceptions, and thoughts of what's happening now. That's all that direct experience ever gives or ever could give. Are you also asking if the concept of the "present moment" is to be found in direct experience (and therefore time overall)? If so, the perceptions / sensations of the present moment do not give evidence for time existing or the "right now" as being just a part of a time continuum of past, present, and future. There are thoughts that are occurring right now that may be talking about this being the present moment, though, but all of those thoughts can only ever happen in that same present moment.


Thanks again!!!
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi,

In response to this,

In direct experience, we experience sensations, perceptions, and thoughts of what's happening now. That's all that direct experience ever gives or ever could give. Are you also asking if the concept of the "present moment" is to be found in direct experience (and therefore time overall)? If so, the perceptions / sensations of the present moment do not give evidence for time existing or the "right now"

yes that is exactly what I am asking. This inquiry is about exploring direct experience until it seen very clearly that the "self" or "I" is something that thought adds to what is actually experienced. In order to really see this its good to keep exploring / scanning the actual experience of the physical senses as often as you can. The habitual pull is often towards thoughts and thought stories or what some people call symbolised experience and we have to make an effort to keep our attention on what is actually being experienced. I guess this comes down to how much you really want to see.

Here are a few more pointers for you to explore.

Does the self exist outside of thoughts? if so, what form can it take? if not, does the self require a special type of thought? What makes "I" thoughts different from other type of thoughts?

love

amrita

[Bayou1]

Hello,

I guess this comes down to how much you really want to see.

I very, very much want to see!

Does the self exist outside of thoughts? if so, what form can it take? if not, does the self require a special type of thought?

Outside of thoughts, there isn't a person, self, director, etc. Direct experience of the senses doesn't give the belief of a self, only thoughts do. There are thoughts that say, "I'm here! I'm doing this all!", but those are just popping up and then believed. When I typed that, though, I then wondered, "what is belief?" Belief is no more than a pattern of thoughts as well, so it seems that believing in anything would just be to have thoughts stating that you do.

On your question if the "self requires a special type of thought," all thoughts come through the same. What I mean is that there aren't some thoughts that are perceived in different ways, like the important ones come in up above and lesser important ones are down below. All thoughts just appear to us in the same place. Self or "I" thoughts are just regular old thoughts that refer back to the self / I, such as the I doing something ("I wrote this post") or some aspect of the self (tall, short, smart, etc.)

What makes "I" thoughts different from other type of thoughts?

My answer to this is really similar to how I answered the "does the self require a special type of thought" question above. The "I" thoughts talk about the I being something, having a certain characteristic, or doing something. Other than that, they appear to be really common and there does not seem to be (outside of someone being in the process that you and I are currently in) thoughts expressing doubt back on the I thoughts. They're just generally allowed to stand as they come - as accepted, unquestioned truth.


I continue trying to put this all together. With each inquiry, it's seen that regular old assumptions of the status quo (I'm absolutely a person here pulling all the strings behind every action and thought) doesn't hold up. What I've found so far that appears especially pertinent to trying to get to "it" is that (thanks in advance for bearing with me as I try to just lay it out):

1) Any concept, including that of a me, only exists in thought. Outside of thought, there is just experience
2) I do not author or control my thoughts, and yet -
3) Thoughts are all that creates the picture of there being a me. So, whatever it is that I am is not creating the illusion of self; it's appearing and being believed
4) However, belief is just thoughts as well. I am not the thinker creating the thoughts of being a believer, so I can't believe anything in that sense, even beliefs about there being a me
5) So, while I can say that I think there is a controller / director or that I believe that there is one, it's just regurgitating thoughts that just appear to me, outside of my control

Where am I going off-track or what do I need to hammer on to continue this "destructive process"? :)
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi Bayou,

I hope you are well and enjoying the weekend wherever you may be. I would say this process is about *seeing* outside of thought and it really comes down to exploring your DE of what is actually happening NOW in terms of sensations, images, sounds etc. Do you find it easy to experience sensations without trying to resist them in some way? I mean can you accept the fullness of every sensation without trying to push it away in some form? Before I went through this process I was aware of some resistance or tension but could never resolve it. Now I find it easy to accept sensations as they arise and open into spaciousness if that makes any kind of sense.

Is there anything other that can be experienced right now apart from sensations, images, sounds etc? Is it possible to pay attention to the direct experience of sensations as you sit for example and find any sense of self, ownership of them? Is it not the case that there are simply sensations present within experience? Is it possible to be aware of sensations and not be caught up in thoughts? Thought can be very seductive and pull us away from what is being actually experienced into a world of symbolised experiences but is thought real? After all, what is more real, the actual apple or thoughts about the apple?

love

amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita,

Yes, the weekend is good so far - mostly just catching up on chores. I'm in the US; how about you?

Do you find it easy to experience sensations without trying to resist them in some way? I mean can you accept the fullness of every sensation without trying to push it away in some form?

I think that there is a good bit of resistance to experience. For example, my kids can be unbelievably loud, and I resent that, as it causes stress, distracts me from getting stuff done, and so on. As far as sight goes, I almost daily drive through an area where there are homeless people, abandoned buildings, people completely ignoring traffic laws, strip clubs, and other things that I don't want to see or that cause me sadness or other emotions that could be considered to be resisting the world. But as not being a doer, aren't these emotions and resistance just popping up as well outside my control, just the same as thoughts, decisions, and actions?

Is there anything other that can be experienced right now apart from sensations, images, sounds etc?

Outside of what the senses and thought feed consciousness, there is nothing that can be experienced. Anything experienced is done so through one of those means and at the present moment.

Is it possible to pay attention to the direct experience of sensations as you sit for example and find any sense of self, ownership of them? Is it not the case that there are simply sensations present within experience?

It is possible. Just now, I sat here and ran through all of the senses asking myself, "Am I this?", "Am I doing this?", and "Is this me?" There is no control over the senses and no discernible entity making any of that happen. Senses are just working, and thoughts are just happening.

Is it possible to be aware of sensations and not be caught up in thoughts? Thought can be very seductive and pull us away from what is being actually experienced into a world of symbolised experiences but is thought real? After all, what is more real, the actual apple or thoughts about the apple?

Yes, it is possible to be aware of the senses without thought being involved; the actual apple is more real than the thought concept. How can one not get caught up in thoughts, though? Thoughts happen on their own. There seems to be a focusing of attention, sometimes on thoughts, sometimes on sensations, and sometimes on conceptual objects, but without a doer, there isn't a me directing the attention.


I continue returning as often as memory allows to the lack of separation in sight between what is seen and some kind of seer. If where this exploration leads is that "what we are is awareness" or a version of that, this sight exercise seems like it has some power. If only it could be "remembered" more...but then I get back to there not being anyone to "remember"... grrrrr. This is really tough and can feel frustrating. I want to do something to get past this and through the metaphorical gate, but there's no controller pushing the buttons to follow some sequence of lever pulling and button pushing to do so.

Thanks for your patience with me.
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi,

When you say,

I continue returning as often as memory allows to the lack of separation in sight between what is seen and some kind of seer.

What is it that keeps remembering? What happens when you forget?

love

amrita

[Bayou1]

Good Morning!

When you say,

I continue returning as often as memory allows to the lack of separation in sight between what is seen and some kind of seer.

What is it that keeps remembering?

I'm not sure what it is that remembers. A thought pops up out of the blue of something along the lines of, "check to see if there is any separation between you and the world," there's a pause as its checked, and then a little sense of relaxation and usually a thought along the lines of, "wow, there really isn't." As far as what controls memory (thought) and the focusing of attention, that seems to be something from that same place of mystery outside the pale of consciousness :)

What happens when you forget?

When there is a forgetting to somehow focus attention in a way to see a lack of visual separation, it's just business as usual. There's a seeming being caught up in the world, objects, me being a body, and so on.


Thank you!
Bayou

[amrita]

Good evening!

What is it that knows or is aware? Is this knowing awareness the self? With seeing can you find an observer seperate from what is observed? In awareness can you find awareness/ consciousness seperate from the objects of awareness ie thoughts, sensations, images sounds etc?

love

amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita!

What is it that knows or is aware?

Only consciousness can know or be aware of anything. Nothing can be known outside of it.

Is this knowing awareness the self?

I might need some clarification on this one. When you say "the self," do you mean the sense of there being a me, of me having a body and directing it around? If so, that periodic feeling of there being control as well as the sight of the body, perception of thought, and so forth can also only be known in consciousness and therefore only exist (as far as I can ever know) there.

However, the old way of seeing the world was that consciousness definitely would not be "me." That old way was from a certain physical vantage point of a person moving about in a very large world on the outside. What is odd, though, is that when one explores all of this (as you have so patiently done with me), 100% of our experience is only within our own consciousness. There are thoughts and feelings of the other faces in the consciousness being people outside of me and my own face being the only one "on the inside," but it's a matter of interpretation and faith that those other faces are truly others and exist outside of my own consciousness.

With seeing can you find an observer seperate from what is observed?

No, sight does not provide a line of separation between the observer and the observed. There's thought interpreting that, but that's thought-based interpretation.

In awareness can you find awareness/ consciousness seperate from the objects of awareness ie thoughts, sensations, images sounds etc?

No, I cannot find anything outside of the objects of awareness. There's no reservoir of awareness that I can perceive and allocate to be able to see farther, for example - although that would be cool :) What is in consciousness is the consciousness at that point.


Thanks again,
Bayou

[amrita]

Hi there,

So from what you write it seems whenever you look or explore DE you can find no sign of a self or I yet whenever you stop looking you slip back into beliefs that a self exists. Have I understood that correctly

If this is the case, what is that causes you to stop looking or being aware? Where is awareness when you are no longer aware of it?

Amrita

[Bayou1]

Hi Amrita,

So from what you write it seems whenever you look or explore DE you can find no sign of a self or I yet whenever you stop looking you slip back into beliefs that a self exists. Have I understood that correctly

Yes, individual tests or exploration of single senses show not separation between the sensed and a sensor - seen and seer, etc. When I say or infer that I believe that I'm still the director, when thought about, that seems like it's starting to weaken. Beliefs are just thoughts, and thoughts just happen outside of my control. Maybe it's just that I'm expecting there to be a constancy to something when this is all realized. When I check, there isn't separation or controlling but then life goes on, work gets done, chores are addressed, and so on and the mind and attention are on other things generally (checking in periodically on separation). It's strange to "feel" or really grasp the lack of being here some times and just going about regular life the other times.

If this is the case, what is that causes you to stop looking or being aware?

This is something I don't know. Not being a controller and not being separate from experience means that I'm kind of just along for the ride, as the saying goes. I know that I've read at least one non-dual author talk about how attention can be controlled, but attention requires physical action (focusing the eyes in on a specific something, for example) and mental focus - both areas that we have explored with direct experience and shown to not be what was assumed. From my understanding now, I would say that it isn't me causing attention to stop looking or be aware.

Where is awareness when you are no longer aware of it?

Awareness is always here, even when it is overlooked completely. I'm not really sure how we can truly and fully define giving something attention, such as when we are giving awareness attention or the keyboard. Everything is just in awareness, and awareness is always there, even if attention (whatever that really is) is not on the awareness itself but rather on a stream of thoughts or that keyboard.


Thanks again!
Bayou