Need guidance

[santosh]

What is the nature of this I you are refering to, where is it, and what does it consist of? You already said its neither the body nor the mind (brain).

I can understand intellectually that this 'I' is something entirely different from thoughts, mind, body and objects.

But there is a doubt that this 'I' may be itself be a thought of another kind or something coming from a deeper part of the mind. Which due to the fact that it it always there and different from usual thoughts, which come and go, may not look like a thought, but in fact this 'I' may be a core thought coming from somewhere deep inside the mind. And since mind plays all kinds of tricks, it may be fooling us by telling that it is a different thing.

[Olof]

You are on the right track now Santosh! Just keep looking at this. Search for the I within yourself. The mind made I desperately tries to find something to identify with. Now when you see this intellectually, it tries to create new reasons for its existence.

If this core you are refering to now is the basis of an experiencer, that still has to mean it's separate from the world. How can something that is in the world ever be separate from it?

By being in the now, search for the separate I. Try to see wether there is perception and thinking on its own, or wether there is actually something that is separate from the experiencing. When you see, the eyes see by themselves, why does there have to be a something seeing apart from the actual seeing? If it feels like there is something that is behind the seeing, investigate wether that is a pure faulty assumption or if there is any actual basis for that conclusion other than belief.

[santosh]

If this core you are refering to now is the basis of an experiencer, that still has to mean it's separate from the world. How can something that is in the world ever be separate from it?

I meant that this core is something different and not separate from this world. So i guess it is part of this world but totally different.

By being in the now, search for the separate I. Try to see wether there is perception and thinking on its own, or wether there is actually something that is separate from the experiencing. When you see, the eyes see by themselves, why does there have to be a something seeing apart from the actual seeing? If it feels like there is something that is behind the seeing, investigate wether that is a pure faulty assumption or if there is any actual basis for that conclusion other than belief.

At times like ordinarily experiencing or seeing there seems to be an experiencer apart from the act of experiencing or seeing. Like when you watch any object there seems to be initial seeing and immediately thoughts arising on that.

On other occasions like you are totally engrossed in watching something, a movie or a match there is no thought or a feeling of someone seeing, just that seeing is there.
So there seems to be two types of experiencing.

[Olof]

Hey man, I was in the process of moving to another apartment, so I couldn't write for a few days. We can continue now or you can check if Iona can help you instead.

I meant that this core is something different and not separate from this world. So i guess it is part of this world but totally different.

If this core is not based on thought, then what is it? It's very important that you look at that thorougly. You could say that's what buddhists call nothingness. But you are not nothingness, nothingness is.

Always be careful of all thoughts that say "im that". For example "Im the world", "im nothingness", "im beingness" etc. Because that is always a projection of thought, another form of mind made self being created. You are not anything, but yet everything, you ARE.

At times like ordinarily experiencing or seeing there seems to be an experiencer apart from the act of experiencing or seeing. Like when you watch any object there seems to be initial seeing and immediately thoughts arising on that.

On other occasions like you are totally engrossed in watching something, a movie or a match there is no thought or a feeling of someone seeing, just that seeing is there.
So there seems to be two types of experiencing.

If you watch an object, there is experience of watching the object, then thoughts arise. Where is the experiencer in that? Isn't that which you presume is an experiencer just part of the arising stream of thoughts?

The mind made self is based around a faulty and untested hypothesis made by the brain, that there is a doer and a thinker. Testing this hypothesis is whats going to get you through this. :)

Watching TV is a lot like being hypnotised. A very passive state. The thoughts might not come, but instead, you are totalt absorbed in the movie. That's a very uncounscious state to be in, because you forget about the rest of the world. However, when you're totaly absorbed in a movie, where is the I?

[santosh]

[quote="Olof"]Hey man, I was in the process of moving to another apartment, so I couldn't write for a few days. We can continue now or you can check if Iona can help you instead.[quote]

Firstly, sorry for that. This basically you see comes from lack of confidence in myself and others. I was thinking that you have lost patience with me. Because I feel unlike many others, (after reading some threads), I am just in the starting stage and that too I doubt whether I can put the necessary effort in terms of like studying the thoughts and all that.
Olof, basically I am a very lazy guy. So you can decide whether you have the patience to withstand me. Off course, I want to get through this daily suffering and want to taste the freedom which you people tell. Hearing the stories of liberation itself makes me feel like crying and I want it desperately.

Another big hindrance in my case is although I have been reading non-duality and I believe in it. But experiencially I am zero. The reason is that I am all the time full of thoughts unlike other people. I am never present, even while riding, working, seeing T.V or doing anything like brushing teeth, shaving, I am all the time thinking about future, past, what someday to me, how to react to others. So the noise is too much. I feel my wife is more present than me, off course she is not interested in these things, but if she were to, she would get liberated far more easily than me.

So I want to ask you before continuing further, whether this continuous noise of thoughts in my head would become a problem in my quest.

[Olof]

Firstly, sorry for that. This basically you see comes from lack of confidence in myself and others. I was thinking that you have lost patience with me. Because I feel unlike many others, (after reading some threads), I am just in the starting stage and that too I doubt whether I can put the necessary effort in terms of like studying the thoughts and all that.
Olof, basically I am a very lazy guy. So you can decide whether you have the patience to withstand me. Off course, I want to get through this daily suffering and want to taste the freedom which you people tell. Hearing the stories of liberation itself makes me feel like crying and I want it desperately.

Another big hindrance in my case is although I have been reading non-duality and I believe in it. But experiencially I am zero. The reason is that I am all the time full of thoughts unlike other people. I am never present, even while riding, working, seeing T.V or doing anything like brushing teeth, shaving, I am all the time thinking about future, past, what someday to me, how to react to others. So the noise is too much. I feel my wife is more present than me, off course she is not interested in these things, but if she were to, she would get liberated far more easily than me.

So I want to ask you before continuing further, whether this continuous noise of thoughts in my head would become a problem in my quest.

I will stick with you until you get it, it doesn't matter how slow or fast you are!

This post is very good, because it tells a lot about you. You see this as a quest, as something you want to get to feel good. The you that sees this as a quest IS THE MIND MADE SELF THERE IS WANT TO GET RID OFF. But right now, your mind made self wants to "get rid" of the mind made self to get a new and better mind made self, an ego with pleasure and freedom. You have to go past ALL THAT. Take a leap of faith and just drop it. See that it just is not a true belief.

Thoughts will always come and go, they can never be controlled. Thoughts are real and a natural part of our human brain, what we are talking about here is that what you as a human being are, is not the thought based idea of I inside your brain.

This can be seen in 5 minutes. Its not hard, it doesn't take a lot of time. That is only more hindrances created by your identification with thoughts. Your mind made self tries to take you away from this, because for it, it is death.

The YOU that wants THIS DESPERATELY, IS THE MIND MADE SELF.

The believer in non duality, IS THE MIND MADE SELF.

The one that is not present, IS THE MIND MADE SELF.

The world is presence, it is always present, the mind creates thoughts about thoughts in the NOW, these thoughts point to things that are not in the NOW. But there is NOTHING that is not in the NOW, only FALSE BELIEFS of how things are, like the you.

Example:

A thought about what you are going to do friday night during thursday morning... This thought is created in the NOW, but it points to a happening in the future, that future doesn't exist in reality, it is only a belief or idea created by the mind IN THE NOW.

The you that is not present, is thoughts pointing to things that are not in the now in exactly the same way, but the real you is always in the now. But when this happends, you believe it so much that it feels like "you" is not present.

What "you" see as you, is a network of thoughts that POINT to a self image of Santosh that isnt true. It is a false self image, but there is so much belief in it, that you think its you. The real you - the world - reality - presence - the now, doesnt BELIEVE, it doesn't condemn, it doesnt want or not want, it IS. The body has its own intelligence, and it can want things it needs for survival, that is part of who you are, but the body is also part of reality.


You didn't come into reality when you were born, you grew out of it.

An apple didnt come onto the apple tree, it grew out from it.

Focus on this, look at your mind. Is the image of Santosh true? This can take 5 minutes or 50 years. It all depends on how much you choose to procrastinate. Remember, the mind has many techniques to draw you away from this. Rationalisations, intellectualising, etc. Don't try to add information to your intellect, that wont solve this you only need to look and SEE. Its like doing math, you dont understand how to do it if you get the answer without working out the problem. Information you get is worth nothing if you dont check if its true for yourself.


GOOD LUCK MY BROTHER!

Please don't see the capital letters as me being angry, it's only to help you focus on important things. ;D

[Olof]

On an additional note: dont see this as studying thoughts. That is the self trying to add more information to it. It lives on information. Dont add anything to your intellect, the information and pointers you get here is only to help you look in the right direction for yourself.

Its about looking and realizing that the self just is a false belief.

[santosh]

Focus on this, look at your mind. Is the image of Santosh true? This can take 5 minutes or 50 years. It all depends on how much you choose to procrastinate. Remember, the mind has many techniques to draw you away from this. Rationalisations, intellectualising, etc. Don't try to add information to your intellect, that wont solve this you only need to look and SEE. Its like doing math, you dont understand how to do it if you get the answer without working out the problem. Information you get is worth nothing if you dont check if its true for yourself.

Beautifully said. I think my mind wants to have loads of information on nonduality, it wants to keep intellectualising so that it can run away from the real issue.

You said, "look at your mind". My method is "I would say ok lets stop all thoughts and lets see what new thoughts come in" and I would wait for the next thought to come. Sometimes its helpful because for some one or two second no thought would come and I feel am more present or I would observe things around me without thoughts. But sometimes I get confused with this, its like this "waiting for the next thought or the feeling of observing things without thoughts" is itself another thought and that its another game mind is playing in the guise of concept of nonduality. I am really confused about it.

So I think wouldn't be better if you can you suggest me one or two methods to how to go about it.

[Olof]

You dont have to try to stop the thoughts, that's impossible anyway. The point is, YOU cannot do anything at all, because YOU is not something real apart from an empty concept. When you sit in your chair, trying to watch thoughts and create spaces between them, there is an expression of reality - as your being - sitting in a chair watching thoughts, while the concept of self is there all the time.
The concept of self is not located anywhere specific, its just a belief held by the brain.

If you would believe that the president of India is the best leader ever. Where is that belief? Its a general assumption made by the brain. The you as a separate thinker is a belief held by the brain in the same way.

You see through this belief by looking at it. Testing it. Ask questions to yourself and see wether they are true.

Where is the self that is apart from reality?
Is it able to do anything? Does it know how to move your fingers when you type on your keyboard, or does it just happen by itself? Does it pump your heart? Control your intestines? No. Conscious muscle movements feels differently because they are connected to the self aware part of the brain in a different way, but that doesn't mean that the thoughts building up the separate I is real or has the ability to do anything except from interfering with the type of thoughts and feelings that arise. These then has an effect on what you as a being do in this world.

When you move your arm, it feels like "you" can choose to move it or not. That is because, as said before, it is connected to functions of the brain that is self aware. That is a brain, the brain in turn, is in reality, and reality, is percieved through the brain. The two go together.

[santosh]

Although some parts of your reply I could understand. But the overall meaning of the reply I could not get.

Where is the self that is apart from reality?
Is it able to do anything? Does it know how to move your fingers when you type on your keyboard, or does it just happen by itself? Does it pump your heart? Control your intestines? No. Conscious muscle movements feels differently because they are connected to the self aware part of the brain in a different way, but that doesn't mean that the thoughts building up the separate I is real or has the ability to do anything except from interfering with the type of thoughts and feelings that arise. These then has an effect on what you as a being do in this world.

When you move your arm, it feels like "you" can choose to move it or not. That is because, as said before, it is connected to functions of the brain that is self aware. That is a brain, the brain in turn, is in reality, and reality, is percieved through the brain. The two go together.

Particularly, the above sentence I could understand bits and parts, not the main meaning.

[Olof]

If you would believe that the president of India is the best leader ever. Where is that belief? Its a general assumption made by the brain. The you as a separate thinker is a belief held by the brain in the same way.

Now, lie down in bed, or sit down in a chair, and think about this sentence. The you as a belief that is false. See what happends.

[santosh]

If you would believe that the president of India is the best leader ever. Where is that belief? Its a general assumption made by the brain. The you as a separate thinker is a belief held by the brain in the same way.

Now, lie down in bed, or sit down in a chair, and think about this sentence. The you as a belief that is false. See what happends.

Intellectually,the brain or mind says ok your thinking may be correct. But nothing is happening experientially.

[Olof]

Keep looking looking looking. You don't need more information, you had more than enough in this thread.

There is no you.

Look.

Is it true?

[Olof]

What comes up? Different arguments against this hypothesis? What are they? Are these reasons legitimate?

When I say look, I mean stare at the idea of you for at least 30 minutes to an hour. Talk a walk, look some more at it. Process the information. Keep the question with you.

What are you?

[santosh]

What comes up? Different arguments against this hypothesis? What are they? Are these reasons legitimate?

When I say look, I mean stare at the idea of you for at least 30 minutes to an hour. Talk a walk, look some more at it. Process the information. Keep the question with you.

What are you?

Three things come up in this "looking"
1. Easy part is that it can be easily that this I or me or self is not the body. That is very clear since we can easily differentiate this me from the body.
2. Second part is to watch this thought that is going on. I have a problem here, how do you watch these thoughts coming up, because this watching or the decision to watch the thoughts coming up is itself given by a thought and it looks like a thought is looking at another thought.
3. There really seems to be a mind or a collection of primary thoughts which is different from the routine thoughts that is coming up. Otherwise who decides whether to go in search of nonduality or to go to office.

]There seems to be a constant mind structure called Santosh, if it is just a thought why it's character or behaviour remains the same throughout his life. Even people who interact with Santosh knows is like this, so there is something which keeps Santosh the same despite all the routine thoughts rising. If Santosh is only made of thoughts rising up now then it can make Santosh a different person, why it is not the case.