Find what does not come and go - gondwana

[gondwana]

I was really touched by this, and wanted to answer immediately. Then somehow I got distracted. It seems like an urgency of spiritual search brings me here. Then, when I start to feel better, the urgency is gone, and my focus shifts away from this looking practice, to life as it used to be, with a myriad of other, seemingly more dramatic events. So maybe some ego game still going on here, always looking for the next kick?!

Yes, exactly that. But consider that the ego does not want to be revealed as merely an illusion, a mirage. It will kick up all manner of excuses and reasons, claiming anything is more important than looking at this simple truth. But that is also part of the illusion, to stop you from pulling back the curtain.

What could possibly be more important than lifelong and total freedom?

One question: would you say there is a difference between observing and perceiving? Is observing more disconnected, while perceiving more in the middle of it?
I ask this because of this spiritual trap called "bypass": to observe the feelings, so that I don't have to feel them anymore.

What is the difference between observing and perceiving? Merely semantics! That surely depends on your definition of the words. Nobody has ever said to avoid feeling feelings. They can be observed and still felt, just the same.

This questions arising is merely the mind trying to create excuses that it must understand "this process" before it will be allowed to continue. But no understanding is needed. It is experiential, not intellectual. Simply follow the exercises and LOOK directly at immediate experience, IN THE PRESENT MOMENT. The truth will be seen easily then!

The exercise of observing the talking, walking, breathing, thinking was something we had before. I will continue to watch closely.

Sometimes, I may give a repeat of a previous exercise. All of these exercises are EXPERIENTIAL. You cannot "get it" by intellect, by thinking or imagining the outcome in the mind. It can only be seen, by doing the exercise for real. You must have the direct experience of it, because the mind (thought) simply cannot know it -- only direct experience can know it.

So if there seems to be repeat, it is always by design. Mostly because it was not seen the last time that exercise was presented. It is important to do every exercise earnestly, as if seen for the first time ever ;)

The suggestion here is to try again on the set of talking, walking, breathing exercises above, as if for the first time. If there still seems to be any sense of a "doer", then do it again. Do it many times throughout the day, if needed until clear. Do not take my word for anything! Check for yourself whether there really IS a doer or not!

[Lumen2go]

What could possibly be more important than lifelong and total freedom?

Nothing could be more important. I see this priority very clearly now.

It is experiential, not intellectual. Simply follow the exercises and LOOK directly at immediate experience, IN THE PRESENT MOMENT. The truth will be seen easily then!
...
The suggestion here is to try again on the set of talking, walking, breathing exercises above, as if for the first time. If there still seems to be any sense of a "doer", then do it again. Do it many times throughout the day, if needed until clear. Do not take my word for anything! Check for yourself whether there really IS a doer or not!

I do this all the time. It's my new practice.
Let me go with this for a while. Will report in a few days.
Thank you so much!

[gondwana]

What was seen?

I will offer some alternative pointers if still unclear at this point.

[Lumen2go]

Dear Tim,
Thanks for following up.
The I thought and the doer do not really bother me, they don't seem to be very prominent, and I don't believe in them consciously. What happens a lot though is getting lost in thought as such. Infinite thought chains use up a lot of attention. This can go on for a long time throughout the day, especially when I am busy. Besides managing lots of things to do, or to decide, it also includes fruitless and frustrating thoughts about the future or the sense of life.

It takes some kind of conscious resolve or effort to come back into the present moment.
This works quite well by focusing attention onto things in the immediate environment, or onto bodily sensations. Sometimes strong emotions come up. Still sometimes desperation and fear of the abyss, but mostly just being touched, with tears, or maybe just thankfulness.

When I manage to stay there for a while before the next reaction or to do is required, things are slowing down. I walk more slowly, or even stop without a reason. A sense of relief, as the heavy burden of doership and responsibility for my life is taken off my shoulders. Sometimes laughter.

But soon thought catches me again.

So yes, if you could provide some more pointers on how to deal with these endless thought chains, that would be very helpful.

Many thanks
Jan

[gondwana]

Ok, try this.

The next time thought kicks off a thought chain, simply ask immediately, firmly, in the mind:
“Who’s talking???”
Then relax and wait for the answer.

Try this for one day. What happens?

[Lumen2go]

Ok, try this.

The next time thought kicks off a thought chain, simply ask immediately, firmly, in the mind:
“Who’s talking???”
Then relax and wait for the answer.

Try this for one day. What happens?

This is a great exercise, and also very troubling. When I tried it, immediately I saw a "talking ring" around my head where the thoughts are generated. Like a radio. But inside the ring was not a person thinking these thoughts, but complete emptiness. Nobody at home. This was deeply troubling me. I could not find love!! Just this ongoing mechanical chatter, an automaton. And the worst suspicion was that everybody else would function just the same way. A world of empty marionettes speaking to each other. Even faking love. Running the planet on full speed. So scary. Drove me really into desperation. My whole activities, my job, projects, seemed all completely senseless.

But then I figured that this could not be the full picture. It's just another thought chain.

There must be love somewhere. Love exists, for sure. I had that experience. (What is the relationship between love and freedom? Is it the same?) So where is it? How can I find it? Not in thought for sure.

So I came back to the grounding work: slowing down, listening inside, doing tasks with low complexity. Detecting thoughts with your method. That's where I am.

It does not feel peaceful or liberated though. In fact, many parts of my life seem to break down which is scary. So doubts arise if this is the right way (another thought chain). But going back into the thought chatter world is no option anymore. So I guess I just stay here and see what happens. Not that I could control things anyway ;)

Any suggestions welcome.

Warm regards
Jan

[Lumen2go]

Update: I seem to think thoughts even when I don't think I think. Some stay undetected for a long while. It's like layer upon layer. Found myself sitting alone at breakfast and drilling deeper and deeper into some fruitless frustrating thoughts without even recognizing it. "Who is talking?" Haha, got you! Immediate relief. Been there before. Takes a while to sink in. Easy to forget and get lost again.

[gondwana]

Sorry for the delay, sometimes it takes a while for the answers to arise.

Update: I seem to think thoughts even when I don't think I think. Some stay undetected for a long while. It's like layer upon layer.

Yes, there are many layers, some are non-verbal. Mostly people assume "thinking" means the "voice in the head" i.e. verbal, but there are many other types of thought which don't manifest as a voice in the head.

But here's a question to look at. Is that voice an ACTUAL voice?
Where is the air moving?
Where is the supposed sound coming from, or being received?
Can there possibly BE any sound at all, in actuality?
What is this "voice" that we perceive?
What's going on here?
LOOK closely at it, observe it while it speaks, and describe how it seems to work...

When I tried it, immediately I saw a "talking ring" around my head where the thoughts are generated. Like a radio. But inside the ring was not a person thinking these thoughts, but complete emptiness.

This was seen clearly and correctly. Where do thoughts come from and go away to? Nowhere!
Emptiness.
The "thinker" cannot be found when we look, right?
Thoughts simply happen all by themselves.
The problem comes when they are assumed automatically as true!

And the worst suspicion was that everybody else would function just the same way. A world of empty marionettes speaking to each other.

Well, automatic belief in thought as true is probably the worst problem in the world right now, yes.
"I NEED to buy this right now." -> buy some disposable product -> throw it away...
Pointless.
Was it really needed? Only thought said so, right!
Was it needed for survival or true happiness? Most likely not!

However, the antidote to that is to see through the illusion. One person at a time.
Then help others to do the same.
Better than going back to sleep, right?

So, is everyone else functioning that way? Many are, yes.
What do do about it? Try to make a change, or go back to sleep with the rest of them?

This was deeply troubling me. I could not find love!!

Are you so sure?
Is love only a thought?
Or does it come from some deeper place perhaps?
When the feeling of love arises, where does it seem to emanate from?
Try to generate the most unconditional, compassionate, non-personal love that can be mustered - a loving-kindness for all beings unconditionally - and look at where it originates.
Can it be seen?
Don't think, LOOK.

It does not feel peaceful or liberated though. In fact, many parts of my life seem to break down which is scary.

Are they parts which relate to the "self" perhaps?
Could it be that these are simply no longer needed once the illusion is seen through?
Maybe they were never so useful in the first place.
Have they brought mainly suffering, or happiness?

[Lumen2go]

Sorry for the delay, sometimes it takes a while for the answers to arise.

Dear Tim, I was so glad you responded :) I was already doubting you had given up on me..

Over he in Europe, life is still very busy, but some changes to report.

But here's a question to look at. Is that voice an ACTUAL voice?
Where is the air moving?
Where is the supposed sound coming from, or being received?
Can there possibly BE any sound at all, in actuality?
What is this "voice" that we perceive?
What's going on here?
LOOK closely at it, observe it while it speaks, and describe how it seems to work...

Of course there is nothing real in a thought or inner voice:
No air moving
No sound
No lips moving
No ear perceiving

It is just a way how this inner liveliness manifests. It could appear as spoken words, or images, or music, or feelings. It's funny that there seems to be a doer and an observer, as though I was split in two.. or three, because there is also the judge. But I mix it up because when the observer thinks about the observed, this is already in the next moment and observed itself.. if confused: enter the thought chain!

But in the moment itself, the position of the unmanifested observer seems to be the entry point to great depths..

The "thinker" cannot be found when we look, right?
Thoughts simply happen all by themselves.
The problem comes when they are assumed automatically as true!

Crystal clear. Thoughts are just a part of the inner landscape.

Well, automatic belief in thought as true is probably the worst problem in the world right now, yes.
"I NEED to buy this right now." -> buy some disposable product -> throw it away...
Pointless.
Was it really needed? Only thought said so, right!
Was it needed for survival or true happiness? Most likely not!

However, the antidote to that is to see through the illusion. One person at a time.
Then help others to do the same.
Better than going back to sleep, right?

Never! Ever! Going back to sleep. Not possible and not desired and not an option.

Nice and simple antidote. Can't believe it can be so easy. Thousands of years of spiritual traditions and decades of individual practices suggest that it must be some very hard to achieve secret..

Sometimes it even seems that nothing changes, so why the fuzz about? But then sometimes the ultimate relief when again a huge thought tower is tumbling down. Great laughter about having fallen into the illusion again. I am getting softer with myself when this happens again and again, and less frustrated.
Frustration is just another thought or feeling by the way.

Try to generate the most unconditional, compassionate, non-personal love that can be mustered - a loving-kindness for all beings unconditionally - and look at where it originates.
Can it be seen?
Don't think, LOOK.

Really nice exercise.
It's like a positive-negative optical illusion.
When I cannot find love, it seems like it's not there. But in fact, there is rather too much noise which is hiding love. It's sometimes so hard to relax. I cannot make it. It's grace when it happens.

Are they parts which relate to the "self" perhaps?
Could it be that these are simply no longer needed once the illusion is seen through?
Maybe they were never so useful in the first place.
Have they brought mainly suffering, or happiness?

Not sure. It's rather like it was perfect then, and now it's perfect that it's different. There seems to be no choice anyway: things are just as they are, and wishing them to be different NOW is futile. In the future, they will change of course, but which way cannot be controlled.

I was driving the car after a very busy day, head full with worries, when suddenly it lost its grip on me and everything seemed so incredibly simple! I could foresee to just live a very simple life. Why bother for all these problems which other people declare to be hugely important? I really don't need to join all these games.
I don't need to be successful or famous or rich or busy or demanded or loved or desired. Life just unfolds, and it is beautiful! What other desires could be relevant? I can still do what I am good at and or love to do, but no need to struggle or to achieve something. Just fulfil my role and that's it. Deep calm and gratitude are naturally generated from such an attitude.

Good night
Jan

[gondwana]

I was so glad you responded :) I was already doubting you had given up on me..

Never! That would require a “me” at this end TO give up...

I don't need to be successful or famous or rich or busy or demanded or loved or desired.

So, take a look right now:
Where is this “I” which could be successful, or not successful?
Where is this “I” which could be famous, or not famous?
Where is this “I” which could be busy, or not busy?
Point to it, describe its qualities.

Don’t intellectualise or theorise. Simply look at the direct experience, in the present moment (NOW) and see where is this “I”?

[gondwana]

Happy new year!

Anything new to report? :)

[Lumen2go]

Happy new year!

Anything new to report? :)

Dear Tim, hope you are well. I just found your post from end January. Sorry for the long break in communication. But I am happy to report that I found a local awakened person and a group I am working with for the time being.
Thank you so much for your time and energy. Will keep in touch for sure!
All the best
Jan

[gondwana]

Hi Jan,

How did it go? Any progress to share?

Kind regards