Vikasana & Forgetmenots thread

[Vikasana]

So what exactly is the Now?

Thanks for waiting over weekend Kay.

The now/present moment is simply a label/thought about time which is also a label/thought. It cannot be described as it cannot be found.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Patrick,

The now/present moment is simply a label/thought about time which is also a label/thought. It cannot be described as it cannot be found.

‘Now’ doesn’t refer to a time, nor does ‘here’ refer to a place. HereNow points to the current and evident knowledge of experience, no matter what it is appearing as.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Kay

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay. Your explanation of the 'now' is what I was originally going to write and then I changed it.

Here are my answers to memory and future:

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

-A memory refers to actual experience of thought/image.
-The memory is 'made of' thought/image.
-The exact difference between a 'general' thought and a 'memory' thought cannot be found.
-The memory actually appears in the 'now'.
-It cannot be known EXACTLY that a 'memory' thought refers to something that has happened.

-The future thought is 'made of' actual experience of thought/image.
-The future thought appears in the 'now'.
-The exact difference between a 'general' thought and a 'future 'thought' cannot be found.
-It cannot be known EXACTLY that a 'future' thought refers to something that will happen.

-An exact difference between the thoughts about past and future cannot be found.

Thank you.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

Let's see if there is something unclear. Please answer the questions looking at actual experience.

Is there a separate individual/entity that is the ‘experiencer’?

Is there a separate entity that is the doer?

Is there ‘someone/something’ who can control what happens?

Is there a ‘self’ that can ‘make decisions’?

Is there a separate ‘person’ who ‘does the thinking’?

Or a ‘separate self’ that is the body or is inside the body?

Are thought, sensation, image, sound, taste and smell ‘experienced’ by the ‘separate self’?

Is there a ‘self’ ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is the ‘separate self’ anything other than a mental fabrication?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Looking forward to your answers!

Kay

[Vikasana]

Is there a separate individual/entity that is the ‘experiencer’?

Is there a separate entity that is the doer?

Is there ‘someone/something’ who can control what happens?

Is there a ‘self’ that can ‘make decisions’?

Is there a separate ‘person’ who ‘does the thinking’?

Or a ‘separate self’ that is the body or is inside the body?

Are thought, sensation, image, sound, taste and smell ‘experienced’ by the ‘separate self’?

Is there a ‘self’ ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is the ‘separate self’ anything other than a mental fabrication?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Hi Kay.

There isn't a separate individual/entity that is the 'experiencer'.
There isn't a separate entity that is the doer
There isn't 'someone/something 'who can control what happens.
There isn't a 'self' that can make decisions
There isn't a separate 'person' that does the thinking.
There isn't a 'separate self' that is the body or is inside the body.
Thought, sensation, image, sound,taste and smell are not 'experienced' by a 'separate self'.
There isn't a 'self' 'in 'here' which is separate from the world and others 'out there'.
The 'separate self' is nothing other than a mental fabrication.

There's no confusion over these question but if some confusion arises over something else I will ask you. I can read over the threads.

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happens and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for?
c) Give examples from your own recent experiences to how all this works.

6) Anything to add?

Kay

[Vikasana]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give an example from your own recent experiences to how things happens and how things work.
b) What are you responsible for?
c) Give examples from your own recent experiences to how all this works.

6) Anything to add?

Hi Kay.

1) There isn't a separate entity 'self', 'me' or 'I' at all or anywhere in any shape or form and nor was there ever.

2)The illusion of separate self is an illusion that there is an 'I/we' controlling what experiences arise. I don't know when it starts. It seemed to start in childhood feeling inquisitive and then lost, alone, despair, anger and wanting to escape pain through addictive behaviour that doesn't lead to nourishment, contentment or freedom. This continued into adulthood even as a Buddhist for twenty years and it's really only until I first started LU briefly with Christian that I felt something more alive and something shift albeit slowly.

3) It feels a relief to see this and alive and stimulating and is where interest is. There is some 'panic, confusion, pain' sometimes when I first see your questions which I relate to 'past' experiences. There is also some confusion/doubt as to how clearly or deeply I have seen or experienced a shift compared to some friends experiences. I have four close friends who have done LU. I've just started to notice in the past few days there seems a little bit more impetus/momentum and a wish to keep going with this investigation. It just feels right to pursue somehow.

4) I came to LU as firstly a friend recommended it and there was an inkling to try it but it took about another six to twelve months for to start and when a second friend mentioned it. What 'seemed' to motivate was my a messy life and wanting to be free of pain/suffering. I was in debt from studying yet overspending on credit, addictive behaviour,
frustration/anger, failed relationship and that what I was turning to 'externally' wasn't satisfying or 'awareness' (Looking). I am starting to see from what you've told me and a friend also that it is about looking to see there is no 'separate self' rather than an expectation of better experience, although you mentioned paradoxically this can happen and is happening. It seems like a 'frustrated' energy that motivates looking for truth which there's no control over either.

5)
a) I don't know what makes decision, intention, free will, choice and control happen or how it works. This is something which has been on my mind lately. From a Buddhist perspective one is affected by conditions but this isn't clear either. clear. I have had a week off and I have been concerned with Halloween and trying to have enjoyable experience it and ended up not what I wanted and going to bed in the early hours on several days. It seems to start with thought about experience.
b) Responsibility is to continue with this process of looking and perhaps helping others to do so if they are interested.
c) I don't understand how all this works but my Halloween reference above is one example.

Thanks Patrick.

[Vikasana]

6) Anything to add?

Hi again Kay.

One thing which is unclear is that there's isn't a connection between 'thought/memory thought/stimulus' and 'sensation'. For example if my neighbour plays loud aggressive music for two hours that there is no connection between that and a feeling of 'distress'.

Thanks Patrick.

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay also I've just now decided to drop one Buddhist study group commitment on a Monday evening which is one less commitment and may or may not give more space to focus on this LU inquiry. With Love Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

Had I known that you were still doing other things ie Buddhists meeting etc, I would have asked you to stop. LU is about seeing through beliefs - and all spiritual philosophies are full of beliefs about what the separate is and isn't....and this only creates conflict and confusion. Please put all of that aside! I had a feeling that you weren't really giving this exploration your full attention from your lack of responses to questions asked. Your responses to my last lot of questions shows there has been a lot that you haven't understood or seen. I give my full attention and time to guiding, so I expect the same from you.

What I would like you to do is to read your thread from beginning to end please. I want you to take your time doing so and read it carefully and thoroughly and redo all exercises thoroughly so that you actually LOOK and see what is being pointed at. Please spend quality time doing this. When you have done this, please report back.

Kay

[Vikasana]

Had I known that you were still doing other things ie Buddhists meeting etc, I would have asked you to stop. LU is about seeing through beliefs - and all spiritual philosophies are full of beliefs about what the separate is and isn't....and this only creates conflict and confusion. Please put all of that aside! I had a feeling that you weren't really giving this exploration your full attention from your lack of responses to questions asked. Your responses to my last lot of questions shows there has been a lot that you haven't understood or seen. I give my full attention and time to guiding, so I expect the same from you.

Hi Kay. I agree with what you are saying which is why I have already dropped the Monday night Buddhist study group I was attending which seems a step towards attempting more focus. I attended two meetings which leaves a support group of four men that I attend on a Saturday morning at the Buddhist centre which doesn't involve any studying. There are another couple of things I do which I've written below which I think I've already told you about. I appreciate all the time and attention you have given.

I have been doing four things which are:

1) Liberation Unleashed.
2) Buddhist centre. Twice per week now once.
3) Scott Kiloby Natural Rest for addiction practice which previous LU guide Nina recommended. With five friends all of whom have completed the LU thread.
4) Twelve step addiction program.

What I would like you to do is to read your thread from beginning to end please. I want you to take your time doing so and read it carefully and thoroughly and redo all exercises thoroughly so that you actually LOOK and see what is being pointed at. Please spend quality time doing this. When you have done this, please report back.

How long do you suggest I take before I report back to you?

Regards Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

How long do you suggest I take before I report back to you?

Report back once you have read it and redone all the exercises....so however long that takes. It may take a couple of weeks. But please, don't rush doing it. Really read what is written and redo the exercises with total focus.

Kay

[Vikasana]

Report back once you have read it and redone all the exercises....so however long that takes. It may take a couple of weeks. But please, don't rush doing it. Really read what is written and redo the exercises with total focus.

Ok. I will do this and report back after however long it takes. Thanks and best wishes Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

How are you doing with rereading your thread and redoing the exercises? What have you notice to date? What has become clearer?

Kay

[Vikasana]

Hello Kay.

I’m sorry for delay in communicating. I’ve decided to take your suggestion and stick with my addiction program for now and delay LU looking until the new year. I've considered if it's resistance but It just seems to make sense to come back to it when I'm less busy externally, especially given my last answers to your questions which I can see wasn't looking properly.

Whilst doing LU I have got through steps four and five which has been considerable work taking at least six months. Step four considered a big one. I should get quickly through six, seven and eight which I've mostly done and then leaving nine which is another considerable one. (The final three are maintenance steps).

I have a few other things to get on top of also including some university and debt issues.

Thank you very much for all your time, energy and guidance.

I’ll leave you to decide if you want to guide me in the new year.

I will write to inform the administration team also.

Much love and best wishes Patrick.