Seeing through the illusion

[gondwana]

How are things going?
Anything new to report?

[Clearstream]

How are things going?
Anything new to report?

Hi! Thanks for nudge. Previously, you wrote:

But the point is NOT to stop thinking - it is simply to KNOW that thinking/labelling can be seen through and discarded any time desired or necessary.

You could say that this has been my main practice over the past few weeks. When thoughts are arising and the sense of self returns, there's just this really nice, warm welcoming. Allowing all of this to be there. Not rejecting any experience. And when this happens, the sense of self just completely dissolves. The problems dissolve. And then, once again, there's just being. There isn't always a recognition that this need to happen, but when the intention arises, it happens. Completely out of "my" control.

So how does it feel to be nobody?

There's a sense of lightness, but really it's very ordinary. It doesn't feel like anything special at all. It feels very natural. There's a great sense of flow.

[gondwana]

Not rejecting any experience. And when this happens, the sense of self just completely dissolves. The problems dissolve. And then, once again, there's just being. There isn't always a recognition that this need to happen, but when the intention arises, it happens. Completely out of "my" control.

There's a sense of lightness, but really it's very ordinary. It doesn't feel like anything special at all. It feels very natural. There's a great sense of flow.

Perfect :) It seems you are through!

Are there any doubts or areas of un-clarity still remaining?

[Clearstream]

Are there any doubts or areas of un-clarity still remaining?

No, it's very clear! At times, the concepts return, but in the noticing of this, they are yet again dissolved.

[gondwana]

Excellent! That is exactly what we are looking for :)

I will send you the final questions now. These are useful for cementing the clarity. Then we can conclude.

Please quote recent examples of experience to illustrate where possible:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Clearstream]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No! I see now that the separate "me" is simply a thought. If I (using "I" here in the colloquial, mind-body sense) look beyond thought, there is nothing to be found except seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, etc. Actually, a few weeks ago I had a realization about this: in the shower, there was a lot of anxiety arising about a mistake I had made and conversations I had to have later that day. But then the thought arose, "Who is thinking?" Immediately, I realized that this was not "me". It was simply another experience of hearing. The thoughts dissolved and there was just stillness left behind. The sensation of butterflies in my stomach continued, but then I investigated that, too. I looked to see if there was any substance to it. I allowed myself to really feel it. Not push it, just experience. Like the feeling of getting into a warm hot tub and just relaxing all of the holding. And the tension in the body released. And there was just a flowing sense of experience, beingness.

There is nothing here outside of experiencing. Just a beautiful clarity.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

From my experience, most thoughts ("I am hungry", "I don't like this person", "I need to focus more", "I am not awake", "I have to meditate") have an implicit assumption of an "I" embedded in them. In stillness or when I'm alone, the thoughts fall away and the clarity of experience is in the foreground. But when in conversation or performing a complex, mind-oriented task, thoughts dominate experience, and the "self" assumed within all of these thoughts starts to solidify. A practice has naturally arisen where I just notice this happening, and a sense of freedom returns. There never was a "self", but thoughts sometimes push this realization to the background.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

The biggest difference is the wanting. When I started, I was tormented by craving and guilt. "I" "had" to meditate. "I" wanted to achieve something. But now I realize there is nothing that needs to be done at all. I was so frustrated then when people would say "you already awake", but I was already awake!! It was just obscured by the cloud of thoughts. I was trying to experience this realization using thought, but thought cannot go there. Thoughts are just another experience, but they are the most sticky.

Honestly, it feels like a tremendous weight being lifted. It feels like all of these obligations that were imposed on "myself" were completely empty. Maybe they'll happen, maybe they won't. But this result will just be another experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I had so many expectations for myself and this process. I was on the path for years. But finally, I just gave up. I didn't think I could continue this striving. I finally said, "If I don't meditate today, that is okay. If I don't wake up, that's okay. I don't want to read any more books. If I am meant for liberation, it will happen." I kept up some investigation, some looking. But mostly, I just lived life. And then I would have these moments, usually out in nature, where the pure presence of the moment would reveal itself. I had this realization that hearing someone say something to me has no difference whatsoever from that hearing that is always going on in the mind!

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

I don't really know how things happen. It's like a force that moves completely effortlessly. This morning, I woke up and was lying in bed, staring at the ceiling. A thought arose, "When will I get up?" And I realized that I don't know. And so I just lied there. And someone amount of time, I started moving. It's like it just happens on its own. One moment, I am lying down, the next I am up and moving. There's nothing that has to be done with it at all.

In terms of "free will"... who is there to have that? To decide? Even when there is thought debating a decision back and forth, "I" have no control over the thought. And in the end, how is a decision made? It's just like... an intuition. It just happens. Trying to decide what to have for dinner... what made me even start having thoughts about this? I don't know! And what made me choose the pasta over the sandwich? I don't know, it just arose and was experienced, like everything else.

6) Anything to add?

Thank you so much for everything!! Much love and gratitude to you, my dear friend.

[gondwana]

You are so welcome :). These beautiful answers are all the thanks that could ever be needed!

Just one small part was missed, would you mind answering:

5c) What are you responsible for?

[Clearstream]

5c) What are you responsible for?

Is this a trick question? :) There's no separate entity for which to take responsibility! In that sense, there is no one to be responsible. I used to fear that this kind of realization meant that a person would operate pathologically, but I find that I'm behaving in essentially the same way as before. The personality, the mannerisms, etc, all arise like before, but now there is no identification with it.

Thank you, Tim!!!

[gondwana]

Slightly, yes ;)

Beautiful! I will show our thread to the other guides now and see if there are any final questions :)

[gondwana]

There are no more questions.

Please check your private messages for a message from our Admins.