Beingness

[Artst]

Hi, Andrew,

Very nicely described.

Now, I'd like you try an experiment related to the Bahiya Sutra. I'd like you to read it again and, as you do so, experience what it describes. Take a few deep breaths and then, as you read, for example, the line that reads, "In the seen, there is only the seen," spend at least a minute just seeing. Thoughts will arise but focus on just the experience, seeing. Then, close the eyes and doo the same for hearing and sensing (meaning sensation).

Then, let me know what it was like to do that, ok?

With love,

Robyn

[ulduffer]

Robyn,

For seeing there is focusing awareness on seeing. For hearing focus on hearing and focus on sensations for sensing. The awareness shifts to other senses out of focus including thought but is brought back to the sense that is focused on in that moment. (It’s mindfulness meditation basically)


Love


Andrew

[Artst]

Hi, Andrew,

Thank you!

For seeing there is focusing awareness on seeing. For hearing focus on hearing and focus on sensations for sensing. The awareness shifts to other senses out of focus including thought but is brought back to the sense that is focused on in that moment.

Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of identification of being the ‘doer’. That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser’.  So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.

Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is; can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing?
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Enjoy!

Love,

Robyn

[ulduffer]

Hi Robyn,

Can you turn off seeing?

Absolutely not

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

No, what was seen wasn’t chosen

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I guess nothing but the thought arises if I move to another room what is seen changes BUT the fact remains what is seen can’t be altered. Also that’s just thought content.



Love Andrew

[ulduffer]

Robyn,

The balls in your court Robyn in case you weren't aware again :O
Hope all is well with you.

Love Forever

Andrew

[Artst]

HI, Andrew,

Yep -- no notification. I was waiting for you! sorry.
Thanks for letting me know. Argh.

I guess nothing but the thought arises if I move to another room what is seen changes BUT the fact remains what is seen can’t be altered. Also that’s just thought content.

True - that' s thought content. However, go ahead and move from one room to another. Was there a chooser behind the moving? Is there any choice about seeing what is seen?

Love forever back!

Robyn

[ulduffer]

Dear Robyn,

Yep -- no notification. I was waiting for you! sorry.
Thanks for letting me know. Argh.

Not to worry it is all for the best. Realisations happened while watching Liberation unleashed YouTube videos because of the break. Just hoped into bed so will contemplate tomorrow. Consider the ball in “my” court!

Peace

Andrew

[Artst]

Hi, Andrew,

Got your message and i look froward to receiving your return volley!

Love,

Robyn

[ulduffer]

Hey Robyn,


[/quote] True - that' s thought content. However, go ahead and move from one room to another. Was there a chooser behind the moving? [/quote]

There was thought, then moving to the next room (sensations,seeing) so no chooser only a thought ''I choose this''.

Is there any choice about seeing what is seen?

No what's seen is what is seen.


Love

Andrew

[Artst]

Hi, Andrew,

There was thought, then moving to the next room (sensations, seeing) so no chooser only a thought ''I choose this''.

Well done!

No what's seen is what is seen.

Very good.

Andrew, you sound clear to me. Would you like to re-send the answers to the final questions now?

Here they are:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.  
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6)Is there anything you would like to add?

Love,
Robyn

[ulduffer]

Dearest Robyn,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No self there never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.  

The illusion is believing that thoughts are an entity called a self, me or I. In reality thoughts are phenomena that pass through awareness, they are not chosen. The content is usually about an illusionary self a poor ‘me’ and is always in Time resisting what was (past) or what might be (future), denying the present experience/moment.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

When ‘I am’ aware it feels neither good nor bad, kind of an empty peaceful feeling, (expansion). Sometimes ‘I” slip back into a state of feeling separate ‘poor me’ for whatever reason (contraction) but become aware of this quicker now. At the start ‘I’ was searching for a better experience, the next step/stage. ‘I’ realise now that that seeking would mean ‘I’’ believe in a separate self that can attain that. This feels peaceful that there is nothing to do but experience life.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

A fantastic woman by the name of Robyn ;)
Seriously though it just seemed to happen.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

These are all concepts and can only be found in thought content, never experienced. Life just happens, there isn’t anything else to say about it, everything just is what it is.

6)Is there anything you would like to add?

From experience it seems to be open honest, authentic and loving will make life flow. This is of course thought content but it is also realised through trial and error on a deeper level that doesn’t need proof or explanation.



Love always


Andrew

[Artst]

HI, Andrew,

Thanks for your answers! They evidence some clarity!

There are some points I'd like you to clarify, please.

In #2, you left out the part about when it starts. Will you please address that?

Regarding # 3:

Sometimes ‘I” slip back into a state of feeling separate ‘poor me’ for whatever reason (contraction) but become aware of this quicker now.

What is there that can feel separate in reality? Is this DE or thought content? Is there such a a thing as a doer?

In #4:

A fantastic woman by the name of Robyn ;)

Awwwwwww, gawsh.... 😄

Seriously though it just seemed to happen.

Can you look to see where/when the shift happened and what opened it up for you?

#6:

From experience it seems to be open honest, authentic and loving will make life flow. This is of course thought content but it is also realized through trial and error on a deeper level that doesn’t need proof or explanation.

If you're going to live in a story, this is a great one! But are you clear there's not really anyone there to do all this?

Love always,

Robyn

[ulduffer]

Dear Robyn,

Apologies for the lack of flow lately.

In #2, you left out the part about when it starts. Will you please address that?

Not 100% clear what's meant by 'when' it starts. It starts in general when thoughts occur and are believed.
The content of thought is usually associated with 'I' so the illusion becomes 'real/reality' when one
believes these stories to be true.

Sometimes ‘I” slip back into a state of feeling separate ‘poor me’ for whatever reason (contraction) but become aware of this quicker now.

What is there that can feel separate in reality? Is this DE or thought content? Is there such a a thing as a doer?

This is of course more thought content, there is no doer and there never was.

Can you look to see where/when the shift happened and what opened it up for you?

Don't know, any answer would seem like concept/thought content/memory. One thing leads to another, maybe missing the point.
Maybe a 'shift' is yet to be experienced, can only comment from 'my' experience.

If you're going to live in a story, this is a great one! But are you clear there's not really anyone there to do all this?

Agree, no self here to do this. More thought content.


Love

Andrew

[Artst]

HI, Andrew,

Apologies for the lack of flow lately.

Great to hear from you - no apology needed.

Not 100% clear what's meant by 'when' it starts.

I can see how this could be unclear - it’s meant to ask at what point in life it starts and how it develops. This requires a bit of theorizing/ imagining.

This is of course more thought content, there is no doer and there never was.

Good reality check. I find that when thought content and feelings are especially loud, it helps to refocus on Direct Experience and they tend to just move on through.

Don't know, any answer would seem like concept/thought content/memory. One thing leads to another, maybe missing the point.Maybe a 'shift' is yet to be experienced, can only comment from 'my' experience.
T

he shift means simply going from the illusion’s seeming real and its being seen through. And… has there been any alteration in your everyday experience of living?

Agree, no self here to do this. More thought content.

Clear.

Great, job, Andrew.

Seeing through the illusion of I is a beginning not an end. It opens something up that will continue to unfold.

Love,

Robyn

[ulduffer]

Robyn,

I can see how this could be unclear - it’s meant to ask at what point in life it starts and how it develops. This requires a bit of theorizing/ imagining.

I was told to only refer to DE at the start of the guiding process. It doesn't seem useful to start imagining now.

Good reality check. I find that when thought content and feelings are especially loud, it helps to refocus on Direct Experience and they tend to just move on through.

Yes exactly bring focus back to something in DE sensation of 'breath' is a common one since it doesn't stop.

the shift means simply going from the illusion’s seeming real and its being seen through. And… has there been any alteration in your everyday experience of living?

As for alteration of everyday experience, yes of course the dropping away of self has led to a more relaxed peaceful existence.

Love,

Andrew