Unsure

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anthony,

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

"How" almost seems superfluous. It is directly occurring in actual experience, it's concrete, it IS. Any thought about a previous decision seems unnecessary and transparent.

Can you explain a little more of what you are saying here please.

Kay

[Fatburger100]

Can you explain a little more of what you are saying here please.

Thoughts do not make decisions. In actual experience the senses are undeniably receiving sensory input exactly when there is contact and no other moment. A thought cannot decide to hear something, or not. Or see something, taste something, smell something, experience something.
How does it happen does not matter, that is another thought upon AE. There is no thing controlling the movements of the hand or the rest of my body.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Anthony,

Can you explain a little more of what you are saying here please.

Thoughts do not make decisions. In actual experience the senses are undeniably receiving sensory input exactly when there is contact and no other moment. A thought cannot decide to hear something, or not. Or see something, taste something, smell something, experience something.

What senses exactly are receiving sensory input? That points to subject/object split. Is there a hearer of sound, a see-er of seeing, taster of taste, feeler of sensation and smeller of smells. Can you find anyone/anything that is the experiencer of experience?

How does it happen does not matter, that is another thought upon AE. There is no thing controlling the movements of the hand or the rest of my body.

And if you look…what is the AE of “hand”?

Kay

[Fatburger100]

What senses exactly are receiving sensory input? That points to subject/object split. Is there a hearer of sound, a see-er of seeing, taster of taste, feeler of sensation and smeller of smells. Can you find anyone/anything that is the experiencer of experience?

There is no separate experiencer of experience, there is only AE exactly as it is. No "thing" not a sense, body, brain, mind, thought, consciousness or awareness experiences the senses. Sound, sight, taste, smell, and sensation have no separate witness.

And if you look…what is the AE of “hand”?

The actual experience of "hand" is an image and sensation without any background witness controlling, deciding, planning. It occurs exactly as it does without any need for a label. The hand isn't seen by the eye, there just is sight without any subject or object. Sounds aren't heard by the ear or body, sensations aren't felt by a body, smells aren't smelt by a nose, taste isn't tasted by a tongue in direct experience. It simply occurs when it does..... wow.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anthony,

What senses exactly are receiving sensory input? That points to subject/object split. Is there a hearer of sound, a see-er of seeing, taster of taste, feeler of sensation and smeller of smells. Can you find anyone/anything that is the experiencer of experience?

There is no separate experiencer of experience, there is only AE exactly as it is. No "thing" not a sense, body, brain, mind, thought, consciousness or awareness experiences the senses. Sound, sight, taste, smell, and sensation have no separate witness.

Yep, for something to be sensed means subject/object split. There is no division between knowing and known.

And if you look…what is the AE of “hand”?

Sounds aren't heard by the ear or body, sensations aren't felt by a body, smells aren't smelt by a nose, taste isn't tasted by a tongue in direct experience. It simply occurs when it does..... wow.

Yeah, wow..exactly! Everything is simply happening, but can anyone/anything be found that it is happening to? It's quite hilarious when you look at it. Thought points to colour and suggests it's a body, but when seen for what it is..does colour eat, walk, talk, etc?!

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[Fatburger100]

I'll need another day on this one.
Thank you,
Anthony

[Fatburger100]

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves

There was no choosing, just qualities labelled. The preferences were also not chosen, just memories and concepts appearing.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

Numbers simply appeared within the line of thought and replaced the previous thoughts. There was no mental function choosing it to happen, it is simple as another sound appearing after another and "replacing" the other in direct experience.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Only a memory claims "I have chosen things before," but right now, nothing is being chosen at all, not thoughts or actions or sounds or sights. Even when my head turns, a memory says "I was looking elsewhere before," referring to a difference in sight which can't occur in direct experience, only in mentally lacing time together through thoughts. There is no color/image/shape to this function, no smell, no taste, no sensation. There is no function to this function at all, perhaps it doesn't even exist.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

A sense of choosing is just a mental label upon an emotion of uncertainty, but emotions don't have choice in their nature. They arise dependent on many circumstances. Fear does not choose to become confidence, they emotions are "replaced" in actual experience, like sounds, sights, sensations and thoughts. There is no controller of emotions, no controller of sound, no controller of thought, no controller of sensation, no controller of experience.

[forgetmenot]

Good morning Anthony,

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves

There was no choosing, just qualities labelled. The preferences were also not chosen, just memories and concepts appearing.

And without thought, how is it known that there are qualities and preferences?! :)

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Only a memory claims "I have chosen things before," but right now, nothing is being chosen at all, not thoughts or actions or sounds or sights. Even when my head turns, a memory says "I was looking elsewhere before," referring to a difference in sight which can't occur in direct experience, only in mentally lacing time together through thoughts. There is no color/image/shape to this function, no smell, no taste, no sensation. There is no function to this function at all, perhaps it doesn't even exist.

“Perhaps it doesn’t even exist”. I would like for you to look again so that you are clear if there is anything including a ‘mental function/faculty’ that is choosing., and let me know what you find when looking.
Can colour, taste, thought, smell, sensation or sound choose anything? When looking, did this function exist or not? When you flipped the hand in our previous exercise, did you find a chooser of when you were going to flip it?

What is the AE of ‘memory’?
What exactly is it that has a ‘memory’?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

A sense of choosing is just a mental label upon an emotion of uncertainty, but emotions don't have choice in their nature. They arise dependent on many circumstances.

What exactly is a ‘mental label’?

There is no cause and effect. Cause and effect points to the belief in both time and separation. That something follows something else and that there is something that something is happening to.

Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
If yes, could you find the boundary between the three?
I mean, not the imagined, conceptual boundary, but the actual boundary that can be perceived
with one or more of the senses.
Please take your time in doing this, and enjoy the experiment!

Fear does not choose to become confidence, they emotions are "replaced" in actual experience, like sounds, sights, sensations and thoughts. There is no controller of emotions, no controller of sound, no controller of thought, no controller of sensation, no controller of experience.

What is the AE of ‘emotions’? When you break down an ‘emotion’ , say for example 'fear' into AE…what does thought point to as an emotion?

Kay

[Fatburger100]

And without thought, how is it known that there are qualities and preferences?! :)

Without thought, there would be no differences between 1 sound or another, 1 taste, 1 sight, etc. Conceptualization is very useful.

“Perhaps it doesn’t even exist”. I would like for you to look again so that you are clear if there is anything including a ‘mental function/faculty’ that is choosing., and let me know what you find when looking.

There is no function that has the ability to choose. It is only a thought.

Can colour, taste, thought, smell, sensation or sound choose anything?

No.

When looking, did this function exist or not? When you flipped the hand in our previous exercise, did you find a chooser of when you were going to flip it?

No, there was no function of choice. There is no one who flips the hand, not even the hand itself

What is the AE of ‘memory’?

A thought about a different sense or circumstance than what is currently occurring.

What exactly is it that has a ‘memory’?

There is no thing that has a memory, there is only the thought of memory when it occurs.

What exactly is a ‘mental label’?

Only a thought

Look at the display before you. When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen? Are these three separate?

No, it is one full composition. Seeing, seer, and seen are just concepts dividing one sense. Hearing, hearer, and heard, tasting, taster and tasted, sensing, senser, and sensed. Thinking, thinker, and thought are also like this.

What is the AE of ‘emotions’? When you break down an ‘emotion’ , say for example 'fear' into AE…what does thought point to as an emotion?

Fear may have some physical sensation like sweating, increased heart rate, etc. But emotion itself is just a concept of thought, and can be filled with excessive thinking and worrying. So "emotions" are a concept about certain types of thoughts, just as with memory.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anthony,

What is the AE of ‘memory’?

A thought about a different sense or circumstance than what is currently occurring.

Yes, it is simply a label that thought gives to divide thoughts into different categories and hierarchies! :)

What exactly is a ‘mental label’?

Only a thought

And where exactly do thoughts appear?

What is the AE of ‘emotions’? When you break down an ‘emotion’ , say for example 'fear' into AE…what does thought point to as an emotion?

Fear may have some physical sensation like sweating, increased heart rate, etc. But emotion itself is just a concept of thought, and can be filled with excessive thinking and worrying. So "emotions" are a concept about certain types of thoughts, just as with memory.

Let’s look at ‘fear’. You can do this with any emotion that appears.

The label ‘fear’ is AE of thought and not AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is AE of sensation and not the AE of fear
The sensation labelled as ‘sweat’ and ‘heartbeat’ are AE of sensation and not AE of sweat or a heartbeat
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is AE of colour and not AE of fear
The thoughts ABOUT fear are AE of thought and not AE of fear

So, is ‘there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anthony....you still with me?

Kay

[Fatburger100]

Hello Kay!

I'm very sorry, I hadn't even noticed so much time had passed since the last message! I haven't had access to the internet for awhile but have been continuing in regular meditation and your exercises.

And where exactly do thoughts appear?

Thoughts have no location, a location is just a concept. They simply manifest in actual experience.

So, is ‘there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

There is no actual experience of fear, there is just a sensation, sight, and thought. Fear is not known, fear is a thought.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Can you turn off seeing?

There is no choice to change what is actually appearing. There is a thought of choice but that is all. You cannot turn off sight, sound, sensation, thought.

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

There was only a thought of choice. Thoughts cannot make choices. What manifests in actual experience is unalterable.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
Wow. Awhile ago I went by the idea that you cannot control external events only reactions to them, but you cannot even control reactions, there are no reactions in AE. There is no choice in seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensing, thinking.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anthony,

And where exactly do thoughts appear?

Thoughts have no location, a location is just a concept. They simply manifest in actual experience.

In actual experience, is there a border, a dividing line where a thought stops, and the "knowing" of it starts? I am not asking if there is a conceptual border...but an actual border to where a thought stops and the "knowing" of it begins?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

There was only a thought of choice. Thoughts cannot make choices. What manifests in actual experience is unalterable.

Yes and it can only be known in that moment that it appears.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Wow. Awhile ago I went by the idea that you cannot control external events only reactions to them, but you cannot even control reactions, there are no reactions in AE. There is no choice in seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensing, thinking.

Yes, there is no controlling what ‘reactions’ appear. The story about reactions appears…but when you explore it, you look and see what is actually appearing, and look to see if you can actually find anyone/anything that is reacting.

So can ‘you’ ultimately be responsible for anything?

And where is this “I” exactly that is reacting?
Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?


Kay

[Fatburger100]

In actual experience, is there a border, a dividing line where a thought stops, and the "knowing" of it starts? I am not asking if there is a conceptual border...but an actual border to where a thought stops and the "knowing" of it begins?

No, thinking and the thought are not separate in AE.

So can ‘you’ ultimately be responsible for anything?

No, not at all. There is no "I" that has choice, action. Sensation and object sensed are one manifestation with no senser of it.

And where is this “I” exactly that is reacting? Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

The finger points to "me" there is no seeing of "me" there is just the sight of a finger pointing! "I" can see a leg, a chest, presume there is a whole body, but there is no "I" within the sensation of seeing color itself. The color labeled "leg" is not me or mine, the color labeled "body" is not me or mine, the color labelled "cup" is not me or mine. There is no I, me, or mine in any color, sound, feeling, or thought.
"Inside" of "my" head, where the finger pointed, there is some sensation that is open, is it empty and near indescribable. Also, there is no inside or outside of "head" that was pointed to, actually, nor are there any "eyes" seen from, it is simply there and obvious without any need for thinking about it. It is pure emptiness, inside and out. It is sensation including thought without a separate witness. There is no conceptual size, location, or time.

Thank you very much Kay, you are a brilliant guide and I've very much so enjoyed this process so far. I feel a lot of gratitude for your time and patience and pointing, and an inspiring awe in your effort.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anthony,

In actual experience, is there a border, a dividing line where a thought stops, and the "knowing" of it starts? I am not asking if there is a conceptual border...but an actual border to where a thought stops and the "knowing" of it begins?

No, thinking and the thought are not separate in AE.

Let’s look at this further. A thought is known…right? When a thought appears there is a knowing of the thought…right? A thought cannot appear without the knowing of it.

So…where does the known (ie thought) end and the knowing of it begin? Can a dividing line between the known and the knowing be found?

And where is this “I” exactly that is reacting? Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

The finger points to "me" there is no seeing of "me" there is just the sight of a finger pointing! "I" can see a leg, a chest, presume there is a whole body, but there is no "I" within the sensation of seeing color itself. The color labeled "leg" is not me or mine, the color labeled "body" is not me or mine, the color labelled "cup" is not me or mine. There is no I, me, or mine in any color, sound, feeling, or thought.

Lovely! Never presume anything. In this very moment if you look at what thought calls 'my body', what is actually seen? As you said perhaps a leg, hands, chest...but is anything else seen? Can you see a face, nose, eyes, neck, spine, back etc?

"Inside" of "my" head, where the finger pointed, there is some sensation that is open, is it empty and near indescribable. Also, there is no inside or outside of "head" that was pointed to, actually, nor are there any "eyes" seen from, it is simply there and obvious without any need for thinking about it. It is pure emptiness, inside and out. It is sensation including thought without a separate witness. There is no conceptual size, location, or time.

Lovely looking Anthony
Okay...so the sensation labelled 'head' is AE of sensation. So there is an appearance of sensation...then how it that 'space' empty?

Let's have a look at why it seems the head is where the "I" is. It is generally believed that thoughts are coming from the head somewhere around the forehead. When we try to trace back the origin of a thought, it is often believed that it's coming from the forehead, because the attention automatically goes to the sensation of the forehead. Investigate this carefully as often as you can throughout the day.

Close your eyes and look to see what the AE of the ‘forehead’ is. Then look at the following questions.

What is the forehead in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image (of a forehead), right?

So, can a thought come from a sensation?
Can a thought come from a mental image?

Have a very deep look here... the forehead is one of the 'residence' of the SENSE of self. Or rather say, the sensation that is labelled as forehead is believed to be one of the location of the sense of self.

It's also believed that both 'visual sight' and 'mental images' are coming from the eyes, because when it's investigated the attention automatically goes to the sensation 'of the eyes', and at the same time the image 'of the eyes' appear with it.

So another SENSE of self is linked to the sensation 'of the eyes'.

What are the eyes in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image, right?

Can sight come from a sensation?
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?

Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?
Can a 'mental image' come from another mental image (of the eyes)?

Thank you very much Kay, you are a brilliant guide and I've very much so enjoyed this process so far. I feel a lot of gratitude for your time and patience and pointing, and an inspiring awe in your effort.

Thank you Anthony! I am glad to know that I am pointing clearly enough so that you can look and find your own answers. :)

Kay