Liberation?

[matt1313]

Hi there,
Today for the first time the question "Am I liberated?" was answered with a yes, with a full understanding of what that meant. I first registered for LU due to many doubts I had concerning my liberation and an ongoing process which may have been pre/post liberation. However, as I write this, referring to myself as "I", "my liberation", etc, doesn't necessarily present doubts about what this means for "me" but rather, I want to ensure that what I see as my liberation is on solid ground and if a guide would be willing I would like to confirm that I am in fact liberated, and have not fallen into an ego-trap. I think the best way to introduce myself and my current situation would be firstly to copy-paste an email I sent to a staff member of no-self.com and his reply:

Op 12/08/2012 21:25, Matt schreef:
Hi there,
Over the past few months I have gone through huge changes in my life, including a massive acquirement of knowledge concerning this experience/realisation, and I've gone through several experiences which I feel I know precede the realisation of the truth. I feel like I know the truth, but the fact that I still feel that someone or something possesses this truth demonstrates that I haven't realised it. Over the past months I've tried everything I could find to attempt to liberate myself and I have been excruciatingly, but simultaneously lightheartedly been scratching off the layers of my ego through psychedelics, meditation, thought processes, reading books on the topic... pretty much anything i could think of or which was presented to me. Perhaps this is just my karma, a long path of realisation, but I eventually found the no-self.com and followed the instructions at the very end of the instructions I began to feel the tell-tale signs which i experience often during my meditations, reflections and bringing myself to the present moment fully consciously and observing. I don't know if i'm making this hard for myself, but i also don't know whether I'm doing anything right or wrong, all dualities are merging and whilst feeling a lot of understanding from those around me i simultaneously feel very alone, all i want is to just realise the truth. i feel like i know it, but i just want the ego to allow consciousness to pour through it, it's not an escape, or at least i hope not, i just want to help myself, the earth and everyone around me, but it seems only i can help myself. your website has helped me immensely, but i really wish someone with experience in helping others break through could help me find my trigger. i appreciate your existence so much, and i just hope you're able to help me, which i'm sure you can, if only i help myself, and now i'm feeling like i'm going in loops again. with love
Matt

REPLY:
Hi Matt,

From what I can tell you (based on information in your email). You are already beyond a no-self experience, with your knowledge. I felt 'alone' to for some time, but when you gain more knowledge, that feeling will be replaced by love for your environment and others. It is a feeling, but also a rational appreciation.

My guess is that your feelings are staying behind. Listen to them, and your emotion. You miss the halve of the universe by thinking that thinking is it. When you can communicate your feelings towards your rational brain and vica versa in high frequencie you gain consciousness.

As long as you are a human you are bound to limitations that come with it. Simple ones, like you have to eat, go the toilet, drink, sleep, etc... You can not, and never will be able to, decide not to. This may sound very simplistic (and it is). Are you ever able to, as a human, to grasp all that is? I highly doubt that I ever will in this life form (me, having a human body).

Trust your feelings. Listen to them, focus on them. Let them in on deciding the course in your life.
I have the feeling you are trying too hard. Let it go, find peace of mind, but stay open and focussed and progress will be yours. Accept progress, enjoy it, look forward to it.
Only by progress you can get there. You can not jump towards the end.

I find myself, sometimes, trying too hard. And when my mind can relaxed after, progress is made.

Hopefully my view on your email helps you in one way or the other.

Hopefully you will gain the course in life you want to.

MY REPLY:

Thank you, are there any suggestions you may have for me? Approaches, attitudes, things to think about, questions to ask, things to try out that could help me relax into it? I do agree I am perhaps trying too hard, but how do I stop when it's all I want? I feel myself jumping from one thing to the other, at times feeling lost, at others as if this is the right path. What do you mean by "You are already beyond a no-self experience, with your knowledge." Does this mean that I ought to simply continue on the path I'm on, but relax more into it, enjoy it for what it is? I don't mean to bug you, or raise questions that only i can answer for myself, I truly just don't want to doubt it or anything any longer, and seem to want as you say to "jump towards the end."
Matt

-------------------

I will be available for multiple replies a day to any guide that will be willing to confirm/discuss/question/probe what may have been achieved...

Perhaps the reason behind the way in which this introduction to "me" has been made is that my self has taken hold again, I feel as if I am in the switching between the pure-observer consciousness and the self, whilst maintaining an understanding of what is, in truth, occurring... Perhaps what is needed to start all over again, just to make sure any lingering doubts etc can be ironed out per se..

[matt1313]

Just an update:
My doubt has decreased to almost nil, full of contentedness, ease and positivity. I understand now that my expectations of as often referred to a "fireworks"-type experience at a certain point which would pass caused my self to create another disillusionment that I wasn't where I wanted to be. Some difficulties and questions still arising, but greatly enjoying them, and more every moment. This whole observing whilst slightly disconnected yet wholly more here and now comes more naturally than my self expected, seeing the effects of heightened vibration on me as well as those i come into contact with, would greatly appreciate a reply from a seasoned guide as I would love to encourage these energies however much I am able to and continue to directly help those around, build confidence in this understanding and so be able to convey it better to others. Seem to be totally fine on my own now, however this is not just for me, I want to help others, and in a very short period of time have gotten a lot better at it, probably due to a heightened direct translation of higher frequency and energy around this point of focus. With Light and Love

[zenkitties]

Hey matt1313,

I will help and hopefully be able to offer up some things to contemplate along the path if that is what is desired through the realization of no-self. First I have to be sure that what you see is no-self and the realization is real. If it is, I will move you into what I'm currently looking into through meditation which is impermanence. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions below. I just ask for your complete honesty with yourself.

What is it that you want from this experience?

Is there and I anywhere in your direct experience?

This whole observing whilst slightly disconnected yet wholly more here and now comes more naturally than my self expected, seeing the effects of heightened vibration on me as well as those i come into contact with

what is more here and what is seeing effects of a heightened vibrational frequency?

[matt1313]

Great :)

"What is it that you want from this experience?"
To experience more, in an ever-growing understanding, ever-evolving and changing "me", whilst enjoying the path it takes me on. All I want is already here in the present moment, and not that I can per se put my finger on exactly what I want, besides simply to live life, see where it takes me and enjoy every moment of it :) There are some things which my "self" still is eager to achieve or rather experience in it's concept of the future, but in summary I just want to experience.

"Is there and I anywhere in your direct experience?"
I'm assuming thats "an I", not that it matters, and no, definitely not, however the illusion of this I does tend to come up every now and then trying to reestablish itself, increasingly rarely, and when it does the illusion is almost instantaneously recognised and a choice is made whether to follow through with it or to see the truth behind it, or rather see right through it :)

"what is more here and what is seeing effects of a heightened vibrational frequency?"
More here is simply the present moment, and being able to recognise it for what it is and not going off being lost in my thoughts, emotions and rather pure experience, although an alternation between thought and being has proved beneficial. The effects of a heightened vibrational frequency is simply experiencing more, or much more clearly what is around me, this includes increased sensitivity to senses ie. smell, taste, touch, vision, hearing etc. A clarity that feels as though it's always been with me, and most times there is no need to recollect a "time" when this was not so. It also means I understand everything, and i mean everything to a greater degree, feels as though my consciousness has literally been expanded. I also find it easier to enter "the state" or the feeling of meditation... words fail at describing what I mean, but I'm sure you understand. And some other effects which are directly related to this including increase in all "positive" traits, as well as a seeming increased positive influence on others, my surroundings, environment etc... which are all just my experience, so perhaps a good way of saying this is an emphasised positive feel for direct experience in any and all situations :)

[zenkitties]

Thanks matt!

There are some things which my "self" still is eager to achieve or rather experience in it's concept of the future, but in summary I just want to experience.

what is the self made up of and why does it want to experience more? What is experiencing this present moment. The moment is always present no matter what is going on.

It also means I understand everything, and i mean everything to a greater degree, feels as though my consciousness has literally been expanded.

who is understanding everything, what is it that is understanding?


It doesn't seem to me that you have seen it, what arises when this is said.

The red flag being thrown up is that whole:

my thoughts, emotions and rather pure experience, although an alternation between thought and being has proved beneficial.

That whole story going on right now. Maybe a more "enlightened ego" story swiftly dug into things there when the old came out. Check the bare sense reality and see if there is a you anywhere to be found, is there? Can you see an I anywhere, if so, point it out so it can be uncovered and dissolved into what it truly is.

[matt1313]

Thank you so much! This is exactly why I began enquiring, this is exactly what I was afraid might happen, that simply another illusion might come up that I have in fact seen through the illusion.

what is the self made up of and why does it want to experience more? What is experiencing this present moment. The moment is always present no matter what is going on.

I'm not quite sure how to answer this question, and by that I mean when I attempt an answer doubts arise. I'm not going to modify anything I write so I can ensure that as much of whatever the problem may be, or the illusion that may have arisen can be dissolved easier. The self is made up of thoughts and feelings that seem to identify with ownership of an experience, whatever it may be. When "I" experience though, most of the time there don't appear to be any thoughts associated with the experience ie. This tastes good, i'm typing on my computer etc. The action or experience simply takes place, but there still does seem to be something or someone doing the action. I would call this me, but it's more that I'm aware of the action...

As I answer these questions a slight fear begins to rise up, or rather a doubt, that perhaps indeed simply another ego has arisen to replace the old, and I find myself questioning whether this is good or bad... This seems like a sign that may affirm what you've been inferring.

What I mean by experience more is to experience what is with as much insight, i would say as is possible. It's not that i see everything as pure energy, but I see everything as an object not consciously labelling it in any way, or at least thats what I determine, I just experience... The present moment is simply being experienced..?

who is understanding everything, what is it that is understanding?

There IS an understanding, it's not really personified with anything or anyone, just seems to be understood.. I don't know how to describe it.

It doesn't seem to me that you have seen it, what arises when this is said.

Doubt. In both myself and in your understanding of how I feel... At times it feels as though there is no thought, there is just observation, quietedness and ease and peace in the mind, but more doubt comes in the form of me not knowing how to answer...

I'm wondering whether there is a certain attitude I can have towards these questions that could help... I hope you know what I mean...

Searching for an "I" anywhere, I cannot find one, which creates a feeling of confusion as to whether it has either hidden itself particularly well under layers of seeming realisation, a doubt as to whatever "me" is, is understanding the question correctly and to the full extent... An I emerges when I think about these questions, in the form of... a completely intangible "I"ness

[matt1313]

Perhaps "I" haven't seen it.

"I" don't know.

Doubt.

Am "I" a complicated case of "popping".

Have "I" confused myself.

"I" think.

Have "I" not found my trigger yet? Has all this just been another delusion...

Does this help? "I" want to do anything "I" can...

[zenkitties]

Look at who is asking these questions. Look deep down and see what is asking this. And does this correspond with an I. Is there an I in the question?

Who or what is asking these questions?

It isn't important what the contents of these things are, what is important is seeing what they are. That even that questioning is not you. Can you point to a you anywhere in that inquiry?

What is the I exactly? In direct seeing, what is I or identity/personality?

Look, Look, Look

I know you can do this. you aren't a difficult case. :)

[matt1313]

I'm looking and I'll get back to you as soon as anything comes up, but this has been haunting me for a while now.. what did the no-self.com staff member mean by "You are already beyond a no-self experience, with your knowledge." and what he continued on to.. Or am I simply getting distracted from looking, an answer to that would really help... thank you

[matt1313]

Is there an I in the question?

Yes there is an I, but it's not anything tangible, it's not that someone or something is asking the question, simply the question arises because of what is being perceived.

Who or what is asking these questions?

I don't know. Who doesn't know? I don't know that either... Who doesn't know that either?.. And so on... I just seem to be going round in circles whilst knowing that there isn't an I, but I can't put my finger on any answer that would be satisfactory.

It isn't important what the contents of these things are, what is important is seeing what they are. That even that questioning is not you. Can you point to a you anywhere in that inquiry?

I UNDERSTAND that the questioning is not me, I BELIEVE that since I already know it, I understand it and therefore am continuously experiencing it. What is being asked here is an abstract concept and trying to find something that doesn't exist presents a paradox, one which I have already seen through. I simply do not know how to find the answer to these questions, asking more questions about it simply drives me in circles... help?

[matt1313]

What is the I exactly? In direct seeing, what is I or identity/personality?

Sorry forgot to answer this. The I does not exist. In direct seeing, there is no I or identity or personality, seeing simply occurs, there is no illusion of self, just the seeing it-self.

[zenkitties]

You are already beyond a no-self experience, with your knowledge." and what he continued on to.. Or am I simply getting distracted from looking, an answer to that would really help... thank you

well look what that statement has gotten you... another ego hasn't it? latched onto a story that there isn't a you there. Check the reality of it, not the story. Is it there, what is past the no-self experience. It doesn't matter what someone else sense, what is currently being experienced. distraction from looking is probably happening. It should almost feel like free falling, no place to rest your head. This shows me that it seems you've found a place to rest your head for a short while. So i'm going to go ahead and smash that structure in which you're resting and tell you to keep going.

Yes there is an I, but it's not anything tangible, it's not that someone or something is asking the question, simply the question arises because of what is being perceived.

Okay so you say yes, but you can't find it, and then go on to say that there is no you by describing the process in which thought arises based on experiencing, however there isn't a you perceiving... It's just merely happening. Just because perceiving happens doesn't mean it solidifies an I. Look again, it is not there, only thoughts about an entity just like a dream of a unicorn.

I don't know. Who doesn't know? I don't know that either... Who doesn't know that either?.. And so on... I just seem to be going round in circles whilst knowing that there isn't an I, but I can't put my finger on any answer that would be satisfactory.

So what you can see is that there is nothing there to know... meaning there isn't a you to know it... so what is "knowing it?" maybe a thought trying to know itself? check to see if thought is the culprit of all these mischievious running around in circle acts follows by the illusion on continuity in the thought sensations.

I UNDERSTAND that the questioning is not me, I BELIEVE that since I already know it, I understand it and therefore am continuously experiencing it.

If this is understood then, why are thoughts about an I still being believed. Its clear in your writing that there are thoughts claiming stake. like the above quote of you saying how there is an I however not tangible. You have to see it again, sometimes it has to be directly experienced more than once to keep untieing the knot until it no longer binds itself into the "belief" structure known as matt.

[matt1313]

Could you give me several questions to keep asking myself please?

[zenkitties]

Hey matt, absolutely.

Where is there a you in this experiencing?

Can a you be found in this thought? (sort of like can a bell be found in the sound that thought labels a bell)



I think you're falling into some continuity issues like I was. Fact of there still being a sense of something there. Break it down to its very sensate qualities just like the false sense of self is a number of beliefs, concepts, and ideas which give the false sense that a Matt is there.

So to is the sense of something there, a collection of the five senses (thought, hearing, touching, tasting, seeing). See how these things aren't actually continuitious but rather follow one after the other in fast succession.

I liken it to say a car which isn't actually what the name conventionally says it is.... it is made up of a huge amount of parts that when put together a certain way gives a specific function.

Also think of the I as a rubber band ball. Each rubber band being a thought. It gives the illusion of a ball but when the bands are pulled away, you will notice that there is actually no ball in the center. It wasn't a ball at all!

I hope this helps to further inquiry my friend. :)

[matt1313]

Okay so you say yes, but you can't find it, and then go on to say that there is no you by describing the process in which thought arises based on experiencing, however there isn't a you perceiving... It's just merely happening. Just because perceiving happens doesn't mean it solidifies an I. Look again, it is not there, only thoughts about an entity just like a dream of a unicorn.

The only time an i solidifies is when I question what is seen/experienced, i'm just going to use experienced from now on as all that is seen, felt, whatever is just experience. When I simply experience, no thoughts arise, it just is, from the perspective of my body. It's not that my body is me or anything like, my body simply is a channel for the perception to be happening. A channel to what, the question arises. The answer: Nothing, just a channel for experience to happen. Now that i don't understand, and my explanation for why I don't understand is because there is nothing to understand it just is. What exactly do you mean by look again? Do you mean ask questions? asking questions is just creating thoughts which allow the self to arise.

So what you can see is that there is nothing there to know... meaning there isn't a you to know it... so what is "knowing it?" maybe a thought trying to know itself? check to see if thought is the culprit of all these mischievious running around in circle acts follows by the illusion on continuity in the thought sensations.

Well of course thought is "the culprit of all these mischievious running around in circle acts follows by the illusion on continuity in the thought sensations", the self is being asked to think about itself, and there is no way to think about something without creating thoughts. I really am trying here, but all this leads to the same thing... Perhaps I have seen it perhaps I haven't and have been constantly lost in ego... but either way whatever I think myself to be me subconsciously, i can't seem to find through conscious thinking because thinking is the ego manifesting itself which presents a paradox which the self cannot resolve because it doesn't exist.

If this is understood then, why are thoughts about an I still being believed. Its clear in your writing that there are thoughts claiming stake. like the above quote of you saying how there is an I however not tangible. You have to see it again, sometimes it has to be directly experienced more than once to keep untieing the knot until it no longer binds itself into the "belief" structure known as matt.

It's not that thoughts about an I are still being believed, it's that they still occur, but when they do occur most of the time they are recognised for the self simply arising and consciousness is brought back to the present moment. The times when no self exists, are when I am meditating, only experience exists, and it feels... I don't know, it just is... It feels great, but the only time when I judge it in that way is after it occurs... I see that all this is kind-of the self speaking, but I want to say everything I can for you to help me dissolve it so I can truly experience no-selfness (again?).

I didn't see your reply, I'll just post this and reply in a little while, have to go do something. thank you :)