Cutting through the paradox

[Anastacia42]

Hi Ossie,

Appreciating your thoroughness in reviewing and repeating your exercises. Also, I agree that anything that keeps you centered in your Sensations is the best way to go.

I have piles of other exercises I can give you, and if you want one at some point, let me know. But I think you're fine with just LOOKING. I was given only one exercise when I did my process here. It was the one about looking for the boundary between the chair and my butt. It precipitated SEEing for me.

How can I support you? Do you want to just let me know what's going on every day or two?

Much love,

[ossie123]

Hi,

The me in me says give me all the exercises but "I" know that will just keep me busy so I can't look.

I guess one question (aside from me being cheeky and telling you to not brag about just one exercise) is how do I know that I am SEEing SEEing?

Apart from that I'll keep going and let you know as I go.

[Anastacia42]

Hi!

First, I wasn't exactly bragging - it took about 3 months to SEE, even though it was mostly through that one exercise. :) Sorry if it sounded that way.

Notice which exercises bring you to a place where you aren't sure there is a "me." Which ones are nudging you in that direction?

Ask questions. The more we interact, the more I can help. Although it's fine to go off on your own. Keeping the momentum up and working with something every day seems to help a lot.

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Hi again,

how do I know that I am SEEing SEEing?

For many, it is subtle. For me it was not. It was night and day. One moment I'm in my regular illusion of separation and the next moment it was all different. We use the analogy of finding out there is no Santa Clause. It is obvious and you can't go back to believing once you have SEEN.

That is one of the reasons to post here every day - your experience changes and so do your posts. We'll be able to tell, trust me.

Much love,

[ossie123]

Hi,

We both know it was me feeling inadequate and not you bragging. I'm sorry I made you say sorry for something out of your control. :)

No change here, no progress, still practicing.

I have noticed the big things don't get to me, like having no home, no jobs. Mum's operation next week where she is primary carer for dad and she'll need a week to recover and have somewhere to keep him but can't find anywhere or anyone. It'll sort itself out.
But the little things still get to me, like someone trying to help me by letting me know it can be done and I get all defensive. Like my sister telling me I need to take over from mum and make the calls myself and not just help her do it. Yes, the first big things are the "universe" and the second is "me". I trust one and not the other.

No technique seems to work at the moment. "Me" knows there is no "me" and I feel trapped on that merry-go-round. I have had that night and day experience and I know I have SEEN, and yet I'm here, spinning.

Also going through a little family drama so I might need to shoot off for a week to stay elsewhere. I'll still be contactable but distracted.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Ossie,

We both know it was me feeling inadequate and not you bragging. I'm sorry I made you say sorry for something out of your control. :)

That is completely okay.

I have had that night and day experience and I know I have SEEN, and yet I'm here, spinning.

Yes, you probably have. But that was then and this is now.

Frustration is just the content of a thought arising. Notice that it's just a thought arising and the content is meaningless.

Notice this in the middle of thoughts arising, in the middle of both the little things and the family drama you mentioned. Question those. Does the content of those thoughts have any meaning?

Or is it just thought arising? Rising and passing away?

Remember the exercise where you looked for the place where thoughts came from, tracing it back to the beginning? Same thing with these thoughts.


You're doing just fine. I understand if you don't post for a few days, but it's still much better to keep the momentum going on a daily basis. With contact on the Forum so that I can answer your questions.

Much love,

[ossie123]

Hi Stacy,

I read "richard" in the gatecrashers and this quote about a temporary seeing struck me...

You can cultivate the flow—that’s true. And it’s only possible to do that in a sustainable way once you’ve seen through the illusion that the flow is broken by the self.
It gives an insight into the nature of being. There are two, maybe more, but I will say for the sake of this endeavour, two possibilities after the state is gone. One—the self comes back with even more conviction and grabs that experience and colours itself in more “specialness”, more “spirituality”.
And another possibility is what we are after here: when you saw that, yes, there is only seeing, thinking, no “me” structure in all these movement of life, it’s just an illusion. You come back and know this. No need to remember it every moment. Realising the illusion of the self is very simple—just that—realising that self is an illusion.

I think my self grabbed the experience and made me stronger by attaching itself to the experience and claiming it. That's why I'm here spinning.

It is gradually getting easier. Frustration is easing. I know I can't do anything to make it happen but to let it unravel by itself.

I do still keep twisting myself in knots but as you say the twisting is just content of the thoughts arising. They come and they go. If I just watch them pass I don't give them strength or meaning.

I'll keep plugging away.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Ossie!

Excellent insight and I'm glad the reading is offering deeper understanding of how things have gone for you.

I think my self grabbed the experience and made me stronger by attaching itself to the experience and claiming it. That's why I'm here spinning.

Quite likely. It happens to most of us to one degree or another. Ultimately, seeing no self is possibly the most humbling experience we can ever have.

Have we done this one below? Even if we have, this may give you some form to the LOOKING.

Observing thoughts

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Use this with any & every kind of thought - emotions (frustration, fear, joy, amusement...), objects, opinions, judgments, simple observations, labels, anything!

They come and they go. If I just watch them pass I don't give them strength or meaning.

Good! Let this happen and let me know how that goes.

Much loving,

[ossie123]

Just a quick one before I do the exercise (again)....

Ultimately, seeing no self is possibly the most humbling experience we can ever have.

I was thinking this morning that this enlightenment crap is a joke. It doesn't make us special but lets us see how truly un-special we really are. Then you wrote that.

I have seen that the space between thoughts is getting longer and it happens by itself. One meditation technique I've been doing for 10 years just has not worked while "unleashing my liberation", until this morning when it happened. At one point I was taken away by thoughts and then just smiled as I watched them go by and the meditation continued.

Will do the exercise and see what happens.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Yep. I posted this from a friend's page in Facebook today. Not to get distracted by a lot of quotes...

“People think that they need to get "enlightened" in order to be free, and nobody knows what enlightenment is. Yes, it's the sacred texts, and yes, this guru or that lama says he has attained it, but that's just a concept; it's the story of a past. The truth is that there's no such thing as enlightenment. No one is permanently enlightened; that would be the story of a future. There's only enlightenment in the moment. Do you believe a stressful thought? Then you're confused. Do you realize that the thought isn't true? Then you're enlightened to it. It's a simple as that.”

~ Byron Katie

Much love,

[ossie123]

Hi,

Yes, words get in the way of their meaning. Words like enlightenment as in your quote, and consciousness, awareness, nothing, absolute, void and god. I’m saying this because I think it becomes important later.

The exercise:

Observing thoughts

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Stillness.
Without going back I think I said nothing last time. It isn’t nothing but is stillness. Stillness contains nothing but it also contains things as well. It is not a “thing” like god or consciousness but maybe allows consciousness or awareness to arise just like thoughts arise. These words don’t do it justice. “Nothing” is sort of what you’d see from a distance but stillness is what you feel when you sit in it.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No.
It was odd and I “SAW” it when there were lots of thoughts stringed together and I looked back to see where they came from. I could follow a particular theme but it was so obscure I had to think hard and well after the fact of the thoughts. There is no way I could have made those thoughts appear in that order.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Can you predict your next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

As above. There does appear sometimes to be a logical ordered sequence but there is no way that “I” am in control of any thoughts. Thoughts just happen, then I am aware of some of them and I claim credit. Thought labels thought then says I labelled it so it must be mine - all mine - mwah-ha-ha.

[Anastacia42]

Good "morning," Ossie,

This is lovely. You appear to be seeing more clearly here. Let's get even clearer here. Bwah-ha-ha! ('Tis the season - in the US, anyway.)

There does appear sometimes to be a logical ordered sequence but there is no way that “I” am in control of any thoughts. Thoughts just happen, then I am aware of some of them and I claim credit

"logical ordered sequence?" Notice again! This is only the content/story of Thought Arising. Thought Arising is DE. The content is not. This is extremely important. That's why we are spending so much time on noticing the difference between DE/Thought Arising and content/story which is completely meaningless.

Why? You may ask. What is "I" or "me" or "self?"

Merely the content or story of a Thought Arising and equally meaningless! It seems to be less threatening to see other thoughts this way, and they provide the practice.

Doership Exercise

Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of
identification of being the ‘doer’. That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser’.

So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:

Look on your right.

Then look on your left.

Finally, bring your head back to center, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black
space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking
can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your
eyes. The question is;

Can you turn seeing off?

Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Take your time, answer each piece.

Much love!

[ossie123]

Hi,

This doership exercise will be really interesting. First some thoughts, then the exercise and I will write here and now rather than my usual cut and paste into an editor (maybe hours later) then cut and paste back into the forum, then preview, then post (as recommended). I'll just write what I see.

Thoughts....
Last night and this morning I did the thought exercise with awareness instead of thought. You did ask this time if there is still a part of me that feels it is the chooser. Yes there is still that part so I did the awareness exercise to see if I am choosing what I am aware of (as I think I do). All answers came out pretty much exactly the same as the thought exercise. NO! I cannot choose to be aware of only pleasant things, or choose not to be aware of unpleasant things, I cannot choose the next thing I will be aware of. The one difference is where does awareness go to or come from.

Awareness doesn't go anywhere - it always is. The best way I can describe it is with the torch analogy I used before. I did think it was a torch I turned around and focused on a specific thing (as I would do in meditation for example) - it was the only thing I could control. This morning I saw that the "light of awareness" is always on and it is just that things arise before it and come into "my" awareness. I can't control it - (but I still doubt me so on to the exercise). Maybe I think I can't control it but still claim it as mine anyway.

Doership Exercise

"logical ordered sequence?" Notice again! This is only the content/story of Thought Arising. Thought Arising is DE. The content is not. This is extremely important. That's why we are spending so much time on noticing the difference between DE/Thought Arising and content/story which is completely meaningless.

Yes. The content of the thoughts had what appeared (by content) to have a sequence. My machinery is designed to recognise patterns to protect itself so it naturally finds patterns even where there may be none (like a face in a rock).

Why? You may ask. What is "I" or "me" or "self?"

Merely the content or story of a Thought Arising and equally meaningless! It seems to be less threatening to see other thoughts this way, and they provide the practice.

Self is a story with many layers and meanings. I am beginning to SEE that even though I understand it. I'm sure you know what I mean. The story is unraveling.

Doership Exercise

Although you see that there is no noticer/observer/witness, there may still be the feeling of
identification of being the ‘doer’. That it still ‘feels’ like there is a self that is the ‘chooser’.

So let’s have a look at this as it has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:

Look on your right.

Then look on your left.

Finally, bring your head back to center, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black
space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking
can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your
eyes. The question is;

Can you turn seeing off?

No.

Can you NOT see what is seen?

No.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

No.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

No. The "sight" or seeing is always on.

Can you turn off seeing?

I got ahead of myself. No you cannot turn it off.

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

Ahhhhh. This is my serious stumbling block. No the chooser cannot choose what is there. The chooser cannot turn off seeing so there is no choice in the seeing. However, as I looked to my left I said to myself (yes this is content but it is sticking me) that I am choosing to be aware of the bonsai on the sink. There were other things in my path of vision that I did not become aware of.

Yes, I understand that my mechanism will naturally and all by itself focus on the things important to it (the spider to protect itself or the nice bonsai it grows to enhance itself) but I cannot SEE that this is not my choice.

If you are unable to choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Yes, the path seems clear but I don't feel that I am on it. I SAW that "stuff happens" and it out of my control, and I SAW that awareness is always on and is automatically aware of any happening without my control. I just can't seem to link them into the very obvious fact that there cannot be an "I" that is doing any of this.

Take your time, answer each piece.
[/quote]

I will do this again for clarity, and also go back to the awareness exercise to check to SEE if there is any control at all and if I feel any control I will follow it back to SEE its source. I will also see if awareness is "mine" even if I don't control it, or if it just "is". Will also keep an eye on content to ensure it isn't confused with reality.

I'll let you know what happens.

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Just one question, more after posting arises again:

I don't feel that I am on it. I SAW that "stuff happens" and it out of my control, and I SAW that awareness is always on and is automatically aware of any happening without my control. I just can't seem to link them into the very obvious fact that there cannot be an "I" that is doing any of this.

WHERE IS THIS "I" THAT DID ANY OF THIS?

Seeing any "I?"

Hearing any "I?"

Feeling any "I?"

Smelling any "I?"

Tasting any "I?"

Thought "I" arising?

WHERE IS IT? LOOK

Loving,

[ossie123]

Hi,

An update....

Can't find an "I".

Can't SEE that there is no "I". (Maybe I'm thinking that just because I can't find it doesn't mean it isn't there. Slippery little sucker this "I" thing.)

No frustration.

Just a knowing it will unfold.

Still LOOKing.