Searching for the socks I never owned

[bonniewonder]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand it to be there is no ego, there is no identity and all of our self imagine is an illusion of our own making and that of society.
It is,a difficult concept as our brains have promoted and encouraged this sense of self to keep us different or unique, but life flows through everyone in the same way.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to be free from my mind and lead a vibrant life. When I first read the site I thought I could understand the idea, ofi course there is no self and then my mind got involved and argued against it. I want to notice every minute instead of constantly worrying, analysing and evaluating. I want to be free from me.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance, to help me see things in a different way. My mind is programmed to question everything because my sense of self is so strong its difficult to let it go. As a concept i understand i just need that extra push through the fear that it creates inside me.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I started reading eckart tolle when I was 21 and ever since then I feel it has been a 'quest' to find peace or enlightenment. I have read most of the books out there. I have found ACT the most valuable as I like its practicality and that i can 'do' something.
Every night I go to sleep I hope I have the revelation like Eckart did, with our the years of reading and thought oppression and meditation and seeking. Im my mind I figure, it has to be easier than this.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Jadzia]

Hi bonniewonder,

I am Jadzia and if you like we can have a look together at what this self is or isn’t.

It would be good for the duration of our investigation together to withhold from spiritual books, videos and so on.
This is about your experience and nothing else.
It is of no importance right now, what others found out, what they teach, in short it is not about what you know or what you learned, it is only about what you can experience and find for yourself, right now. So looking is the key and not thinking about something.
During our conversation I will ask you questions. For each, you will need to look into your own direct experience, and answer with 100% honesty.
You look. You tell me what you see, right there and then.
The answer has to come from your own direct experience, in the present moment (the NOW).
OK?

You are right it is very easy. To see through the belief, the illusion of self is easy. A belief or an illusion isn’t something substantial or something which needs breaking through.
There is this belief in a separate self, an ownership, a person which is the doer, the chooser, the decider and the thinker.
We will start with you getting intimate with the nature of thoughts, how they work, what it is which seems to be their job.
All you need is a bit of patience, curiosity and you can enjoy the ride.
Ready to go?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Did you get my Last reply? I'm thinking it didn't work

[bonniewonder]

I will rewrite it again this evening, I think it's because I wrote it on a different computer.

[Jadzia]

What a pity. Most of us write the answers in word first and copy and paste them in here. Now and then an answer disapears.

Looking forward to reading what you wrote.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello Jadzia,
Thank you for getting back to me, your help is greatly appreciated.

With regards to thoughts I can see that there is a moment a split second where life is flowing through you before the brain has a chance to label or define it. However it is so fleeting most of the time it's not noticed. I understand thoughts to be like a computer programme just regurgitating the same data and really they should have no meaning. However for me this is often not the case. I find them destructive and all consuming a lot of the time. From all the books I've read they say that thoughts are not real but with LU it is said the thoughts are real but the thinker not? This is a difficult shift to grasp.

I have two other questions, if there is no self, what about choice? For example if I wanted to kill myself now, I could, but who would be making that decision?
And.... If I live a life of no self, how do I function, especially with my close relationships when they are still believers in the self?

Thanks for your time,
Bonnie

[Jadzia]

With regards to thoughts I can see that there is a moment a split second where life is flowing through you before the brain has a chance to label or define it.

One of the ‘jobs’ of thoughts is the labeling, the explaining, the adding and so on. That is what thoughts do and there is nothing wrong with it. Thoughts happen. They are part of what is.

However it is so fleeting most of the time it's not noticed. I understand thoughts to be like a computer programme just regurgitating the same data and really they should have no meaning

Have a close look now.
Looking in the way of looking for what is here in the actual moment. For that what you an get by the senses right now: the seen, the heard, the tasted, the felt (physical sensation), the smelled.
What can still be noticed are thoughts, like in “Hey, here is a thought”.

Where can this “meaning” be found?
Can it be seen, heard, tasted, felt, smelled?
Or does the “meaning” appear as content of a thought?

It is time to have a close but gentle look at thoughts. No need to change them just kind observation.
Noticing how they appear and disappear.
Noticing the content of thoughts, ever changing.
Do this and add some gentle breaths to just calmly watch what these thoughts do.
They are in themselves neither good or bad, they just are.

I have two other questions, if there is no self, what about choice? For example if I wanted to kill myself now, I could, but who would be making that decision?

We will have a look at choice later. But for the moment
Without self who or what would want to kill itself and who or what would be killed?

And.... If I live a life of no self, how do I function, especially with my close relationships when they are still believers in the self?

You will find that very little changes.
There is no self, as in a separate entity called self or I or Bonnie, and there never was. All works and functions and happens already without one.
For everyone else it is the same.

What do you think/fear will change with Gating?
What do you think/hope will change?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

Thank you for getting back to me so quickly.

I have looked at my thoughts, and they are not linked to my senses, they materialise from my brain most of the time; unless its a sensation like hunger and then my thought is to eat.. They are often randon or have a tenuous link to a previous thought and the cycle continues like that. For me most of my thoughts are future based, often mundane things such as planning but then I have the more full on thoughts that are mainly worry based. Which I think are associated to the birth of my son. Since then my worrisome thoughts have taken over!
The thoughts in general seem to come from nowhere and I can watch them without being sucked in. However, if there is thought with emotion that is more difficult to detach from.

what do I fear?....... I think the only answer to this for me is the unknown. The way I am now is familiar and comfortable, its all I know, it takes a real leap of faith to jump even though I know its the right thing. Its like a film I watched where the child gets taken off her mother by social services. She is a terrible mother but on occassion they have fun times together. When the child is taken away she is distraught because that life is all she knew. And for me sometimes on those odd occassions life feels good and vibrant and I hold onto those moments, like she did the good moments with her mother.
I dont fear letting go of my story, maybe I wonder what happens to personality, has that not been created through the experiences I have been through?

My expectations....... I would like to feel a burden lifted off my, to breathe and know that I'm breathing; I think what I mean is to sense everything fully and to no longer be constantly in my head.

I look forward to hearing from you.
Bonnie

[Jadzia]

The way I am now is familiar and comfortable, its all I know, it takes a real leap of faith to jump even though I know its the right thing. Its like a film I watched where the child gets taken off her mother by social services. She is a terrible mother but on occassion they have fun times together. When the child is taken away she is distraught because that life is all she knew. And for me sometimes on those odd occassions life feels good and vibrant and I hold onto those moments, like she did the good moments with her mother.
I dont fear letting go of my story, maybe I wonder what happens to personality, has that not been created through the experiences I have been through?

You found a good picture.
Since the separate self was always an illusion and it never had any existence and therefore no influence, that what we call personality will stay as it is, same with the love we feel for people.

Your expectations are close to the mark, they won’t get into the way.
Have an eye on appearing expectations, some might show while walking this path, if some more turn up, please share them.

I have looked at my thoughts, and they are not linked to my senses, they materialise from my brain most of the time;
Lets say for this investigation right now we only accept as real what you can experience by the senses right now, in your actual experience: the seeing, hearing, feeling (physical sensation), taste, noise.

Here is a nice one for you:
Can you find a brain right now in your actual experience?
Check it.
If you can’t find it in actual experience it is content of a thought, or?

They are often randon or have a tenuous link to a previous thought and the cycle continues like that. For me most of my thoughts are future based, often mundane things such as planning but then I have the more full on thoughts that are mainly worry based. Which I think are associated to the birth of my son. Since then my worrisome thoughts have taken over!
The thoughts in general seem to come from nowhere and I can watch them without being sucked in. However, if there is thought with emotion that is more difficult to detach from.

Can you find this link which links different thoughts together? Only actual experience, please.
It seems to be that there is a continuity but is it really so?

Good, so far you found that there are thoughts = daydream (future), thoughts = memory (past) and that you can’t say where they come from.

Now look deeper:
Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

I have considered your questions in detail and tried to use only my direct experience.
Can you find a brain right now in your actual experience?
Check it.
No i can not find a brain. There is the knowledge that the brain exists as do my other organs but i cant experience it.
If you can’t find it in actual experience it is content of a thought, or?
It must be content of a thought as it is not my actual experience so there is no alternative.

Can you find this link which links different thoughts together? Only actual experience, please.
It seems to be that there is a continuity but is it really so?

Its more a train of thought, for example when i was driving, i sgee a man driving a lorry and he's on his mobile phone, i think of my friends parents who died in an accident linked to this. I think of this friend and a holiday we were on, my thought then moves to another friend who was with us, i think i must contact her. Therefore the initial sight of the man in my direct experience activated this train of thought. The link is memory.

The way I am now is familiar and comfortable, its all I know, it takes a real leap of faith to jump even though I know its the right thing. Its like a film I watched where the child gets taken off her mother by social services. She is a terrible mother but on occassion they have fun times together. When the child is taken away she is distraught because that life is all she knew. And for me sometimes on those odd occassions life feels good and vibrant and I hold onto those moments, like she did the good moments with her mother.
I dont fear letting go of my story, maybe I wonder what happens to personality, has that not been created through the experiences I have been through?

You found a good picture.
Since the separate self was always an illusion and it never had any existence and therefore no influence, that what we call personality will stay as it is, same with the love we feel for people.

Your expectations are close to the mark, they won’t get into the way.
Have an eye on appearing expectations, some might show while walking this path, if some more turn up, please share them.

I have looked at my thoughts, and they are not linked to my senses, they materialise from my brain most of the time;
Lets say for this investigation right now we only accept as real what you can experience by the senses right now, in your actual experience: the seeing, hearing, feeling (physical sensation), taste, noise.

Here is a nice one for you:
Can you find a brain right now in your actual experience?
Check it.
If you can’t find it in actual experience it is content of a thought, or?

They are often randon or have a tenuous link to a previous thought and the cycle continues like that. For me most of my thoughts are future based, often mundane things such as planning but then I have the more full on thoughts that are mainly worry based. Which I think are associated to the birth of my son. Since then my worrisome thoughts have taken over!
The thoughts in general seem to come from nowhere and I can watch them without being sucked in. However, if there is thought with emotion that is more difficult to detach from.

Can you find this link which links different thoughts together? Only actual experience, please.
It seems to be that there is a continuity but is it really so?

Good, so far you found that there are thoughts = daydream (future), thoughts = memory (past) and that you can’t say where they come from.

Now look deeper:
Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).

Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Can thought experience thought? Can thought experience anything? (Thought is so very overrated - by thought).
This question really baffled me. But i think because thought is not one of my 5 senses it cant directly experience anything. It thinks it can because it is so close to the surface when the direct experience is happening. For example, you touch something and your thoughts tell you, oh thats nice and soft.


Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?
Yes for example an alarm that signifies danger, your thoughts are then i must leave or act fast but in another sense i feel they are seperate as the,senses come before the thought, i think they must.

I hope what ive wrote makes sense, i feel its quite complex and maybe it shouldnt be. I thinl im missing something about the,simplicity of it all.
Thanks,
Bonnie

[Jadzia]

I hope what ive wrote makes sense, i feel its quite complex and maybe it shouldnt be. I thinl im missing something about the,simplicity of it all.

It makes sense.
What ‘tells’ about this might be too complex?
Thought, right? You are trying to understand what thoughts are in a new way – some resistance is to be expected. Bewilderment is expected too. You are just turning your belief system upside down

No i can not find a brain. There is the knowledge that the brain exists as do my other organs but i cant experience it.
If you can’t find it in actual experience it is content of a thought, or?
It must be content of a thought as it is not my actual experience so there is no alternative.

Plain looking does the trick.
Rule of thumb: if you can’t find it in your actual experience it has to be content of thought.
Well done.

Its more a train of thought, for example when i was driving, i sgee a man driving a lorry and he's on his mobile phone, i think of my friends parents who died in an accident linked to this. I think of this friend and a holiday we were on, my thought then moves to another friend who was with us, i think i must contact her. Therefore the initial sight of the man in my direct experience activated this train of thought. The link is memory.

Memory are thoughts, thoughts content = past. So the link is all thoughts are past= memory.
Thoughts are habitual and automatic. The same thoughts might be played at same situations over and over again. They might not always really fit well, but the next thought and the next seem to create a continous story.

This question really baffled me. But i think because thought is not one of my 5 senses it cant directly experience anything. It thinks it can because it is so close to the surface when the direct experience is happening. For example, you touch something and your thoughts tell you, oh thats nice and soft.

Here you went by thinking about and not looking.
No thought can’t experience anything, not even another thought.
Thougths can’t see, smell ect. To make sure have a look in your actual experience if you can find thought doing something. Can some thought action be seen, heard, and so on?
If not, well…..

Does thought make any contact with other kinds of sense experience, such as sounds or sensations – or are they totally separate from each other?
Yes for example an alarm that signifies danger, your thoughts are then i must leave or act fast but in another sense i feel they are seperate as the,senses come before the thought, i think they must.

Oh, thought ‘says’ it reacts on something, at least there is a thought with such a content.
Can a thought hear a noice, like an alarm? Can a thought smell like let’s say smoke?
Can in the actual experience a link be found between thought and sensation, sense experience?

Thoughts are a running commentary, aren’t they? We are going to have a closer look at that soon.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello Jadzia,

Thanks for your reply.

If you are still for long enough, its clear that there is no link between the senses and thought. However although I know this why is it so difficult to just stay with the present experince and not let the thoughts take over?
At the moment because I am challenging my way of thinking, my thoughts are becoming more destructive. Its like a child who is desperatly trying to get your attention and the more you dont listen the more extreme their behaviour becomes.

Also what about emotions? Are they bodily sensations or just activated by thought; As at the moment I feel frustrated and I say to myslf WHO is feeling frustrated.

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jadzia]

If you are still for long enough, its clear that there is no link between the senses and thought.

Well looked. Yes and it might take a while to strip thoughts back to be able to see.
Thoughts run on automatic and learned responses.

However although I know this why is it so difficult to just stay with the present experince and not let the thoughts take over?

Habit, life long habit. It needs patience now.

At the moment because I am challenging my way of thinking, my thoughts are becoming more destructive. Its like a child who is desperatly trying to get your attention and the more you dont listen the more extreme their behaviour becomes.

This can happen. Go soft, go loving and observe thoughts with kindness.
Whatever you push away will fight for attention – so just allow thoughts to be there, they are part of life, too.
Though there is no need to believe each and every thought. ;-)

Also what about emotions? Are they bodily sensations or just activated by thought; As at the moment I feel frustrated and I say to myslf WHO is feeling frustrated.

Good question: who is frustrated?
Is there a someone who can be frustrated or is there is a story about a someone called Bonnie who is frustrated?

Even allow frustration, it happens in this kind of investigation. Allow yourself time, this is no race but a investigation with its own timing.

What is an emotion?
If you really look what do you find?
Maybe a physical sensation, like a feeling in the stomach?
So there is the body and a physical sensation.
What labels the sensation and adds memories to the sensation? Thought?

Have a look, is this everything which can be found?
Call up an emotion and have a look.

Love,
Jadzia

[bonniewonder]

Hello,

This was very interesting and very obvious once i did it. I could not call up an emotion without calling on a thought first. So this means there is no emotion without thought first.
If someone makes you angry it is not what is actually being said but the thoughts about it that are causing the emotion.
I had some more questions but they have escaped me now, i will write some more later.

Thanks,

Bonnie