Understanding but no perception shift

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

everything you report sounds really good. It seems that your findings in everyday life direct experience is very different than the thought content you had about it, all the concerns how it would, could, should be in reality.

So I want to ask you again:
There is no separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form and there never was one.
Can you give me a big fat non intellectual but really seen YES to this? 100% ? Any doubt?

If not we will look at what is open ....

If so I would like to give you the "6 final questions". It is a good opportunity to check if you have seen through the different aspects of no-self. If something is not clear we will look at it.
Are you ready for it?

love
Verananda

[ElderPrice]

Morning V 😊

Can you give me a big fat non intellectual but really seen YES to this? 100% ? Any doubt?

Haha yes BIG FAT non intellectual but really seen YES! The shift is so subtle. One minute there is a dense solid self then very slowly incrementally it vanishes like smoke. Hasn't poppped back like I thought it would.. No separate self.

. Are you ready for it?

Born ready! Hit me.

Love B

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

cool!!!! :-)

I have one more set of questios before I give you the 6 finals:

One minute there is a dense solid self then very slowly incrementally it vanishes like smoke.

Tell me what happens in direct experience?
This dense solid self has it ever exist as a separate entity?
What is it made of?
Can it ever be beliefed again?

Love Verananda

[ElderPrice]

Hey V :)

One minute there is a dense solid self then very slowly incrementally it vanishes like smoke.
Tell me what happens in direct experience?
This dense solid self has it ever exist as a separate entity?
What is it made of?
Can it ever be believed again?

This statement was originally made to illustrate what is different now compared to before I started LU.


This dense solid sense of self-was my old beliefs and the corresponding anxiety symptoms that I had believed without question for years... There never was a dense self as a separate entity. I am noticing that many of the associated bodily sensations and thoughts about an I are not present any longer. So there is a lot more quietness. NO, it cant be believed again. This fact occurred to me today actually

Another thing I noticed this weekend was a genuine deep compassion for others (if there are others)

I think I'm ready for the final 6???

love B

[Verananda]

that sounds very good

Another thing I noticed this weekend was a genuine deep compassion for others (if there are others)

Yes, this deep compassion often comes when the illusion ist seen through. And even this "if there are others" is a good question. Seeing through the illusion of a seperate self, as we do here, is the most imortant but first step of seeing truth.

I think I'm ready for the final 6???

:-)
ok ... here they are ..... You answered some of these aspects in your posts before. It is a good way to write or summarize here as it is seen now ... have fun:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

looking forward to your answers :-)
warmly verananda

[ElderPrice]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. I can honestly say that there is no I anywhere at all now. I don't understand really how this happened from looking but there is no I. Interestingly this morning I noticed something missing and it was "I". haha. There never was an I. I have kept a diary for many years, particularly when I when to theological college, and I realised that "stuff" was always happening but I had a different story that was layered on top of this life that gave me a sense of control and personal agency. However, as life continued the same stuff of life would continue to happen but there would be a different interpretation of this stuff. It is obvious that there never was an I controlling anything in life.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of a separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

[quote3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.[/quote]

It seems to me that the separate self is just a collection of thoughts. These thoughts develop as we grow up based on a stimulus-response to our environment and our genetically inherited dispositions. Probably develops as language develops and is reinforced by our family. As a child, there seems to be a biological and psychological imperative to separate from our parents. Possibly this separation is the beginning of the development of an I. In my experience, this I became very angsty, struggling with meaning and purpose which resulted in quite a dense feeling. This feeling was sensed as bodily sensations of depression and futility. This focused attention upon those external events that reinforced these thoughts and so it became a self-perpetuating cycle. This made it very difficult to observe at what was ACTUALLY happening in life.

It seems difficult to believe that this was how life was for me for many many years. Now life seems to happen without a controller. I find it difficult to use words to describe this shift as it was so subtle, yet profound. There is a psychological space. what I mean by this, is it feels like I have more bandwidth available in my broadband. The psychological burden of an intense sense of I has been relieved and life seems to happen with little effort. It doesn't mean things aren't frustrating, but the frustration, anger, annoyance seems to flow through and dissipate very quickly. (No fuel from the I story to keep those emotions going). My personal experience had been a reduction of anxiety at work. Having to run groups and teach unfamiliar content has been very stressful at times. I am guessing that because there is no I, I can't be embarrassed - embarrassment may happen but there is no I to be affected by it.

There have been moments of compassion for others (?) Its not that there was not compassion before, but it was only handed out to the "deserving". I noticed that individuals that usually provoke a negative or ambivalent reaction there was a compassionate response. It's interesting because my response to "seeing" almost doesn't matter. It's like that old Zen story about the farmer who indicates that life events aren't good or bad they just are. " oh (mild surprise) of course (complete mundane acceptance )."

But even as I write this, I realise this too is just a story and life is happening all on its own :)

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think your relentless questions!!!! :) The constant pressure I felt to respond kept me accountable. This helped me keep focus remain looking day after day. I really found the exercises helpful. For some reason, the hand flip exercise seemed to convince "my stubborn mind" about control over my body, despite the fact my body completes millions of tasks per day without "my" consent.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

a) Life just flows. There is no control of thoughts, emotions or responses to the environment. This just happens. There is the "appearance of choice" when 2 or more options are given but subconsciously outside of conscious control decisions are made probably based on biological, social, environmental and neurological responses.
b)I have no idea where motivations or interests come from so it hall happens by itself with no input from an I. I don't know what makes anything happen, and it doesn't matter because that is just another thought.
c) this is an interesting question ...... I immediately want to look towards philosophy however in my experience I am responsible for nothing
d) This morning, choosing breakfast. Multiple options were available, I chose quinoa porridge, I don't know why. It tastes good (particularly with berries on top), I don't know why it tastes good to me, I had no control over that preference either.

It has been a very interesting and challenging time. The perception shift was ever so subtle but it occurred. I realised I probably had more expectations than I thought. Life is just the same, but no sense of enlightenment as I imagined. But even that doesn't matter. There never was a gate and there never was an I to go through. so its back to carrying water chopping wood (with a lot less bitching about)

Thank you very much for your ongoing support and challenge through this process. Can't thank you enough.
deeply gratefully yours
b

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

thank you for your wonderful answers! It seems it was worth it to stay tuned! :-)

At the moment I have no further questions.

The other guides will have a look at it.

I will post again soon.

Love
Verananda

[ElderPrice]

Hi Verananda 😊
Again I can't thank you enough for your kind patience and guidance over the past couple of weeks.
Look forward to to hearing from you soon.
Big hug
B

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

there is a question to your answer Q5(a):

a) Life just flows. There is no control of thoughts, emotions or responses to the environment. This just happens. There is the "appearance of choice" when 2 or more options are given but subconsciously outside of conscious control decisions are made probably based on biological, social, environmental and neurological responses.

How is it this known that "options are given but subconsciously outside of conscious control"? What is it exactly that is giving these options, and what exactly is it that these options are being given to?
Where is this subconscious located? Can "subconscious" be found in direct experience? Can an "I" be located that has a subconscious?

love verananda

[ElderPrice]

Hi V 😊

. What is it exactly that is giving these options, and what exactly is it that these options are being given to?

This may be only a language issue. We need to use language to discuss our experience.

For example, some one asks would you like tea or coffee? There is 2 options. A choice is made. I do not control it, it happens.

. What makes things happen? How does it work?

I may have misunderstood the question but this question asks how does it work? I was surprised at this question because I believe it takes me away from my experience and into the world of ideas.My best guess was based on current psychological models. In my experience I do not know how it works . In my experience there is no subconscious.

Hope this clarifies

Love b

[Verananda]

Hi Barry,

thank you for that beautiful clarification and welcome through the Gateless Gate. There are no further questions for you.

Your name has been changed from green to blue on the forum, which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. Our conversation is technically concluded and our thread has been moved to Archive section.

Keep an eye out for PM (privat message) one from admin team which invites you to LU Facebook groups and has other information and resources and one PM from me.

It has been a pleasure to walk this journey with you. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Love

Verananda

[ElderPrice]

Hello Verananda 😊
Thank you for your tireless patience and compassionate guidance throughout the entire process. I really appreciated your consist challenges to help me look. I loved your excercises. b They were particularly useful.This process took up a lot of your time and energy and I am extremely grateful. This would never have been possible without you.
THANKS!
much love
Barry