Ready for a guide and to begin..

[Bill]

This is where it gets tricky for me;

"So how is a choice made if not in thought?
Or is a choice even made at all?
Is something doing all this, that you can point to or locate?"

I keep asking myself how can there be a choice made with no one to choose? I cannot find a self who is choosing likes and dislikes or making decisions at home or work. Yet somehow there is a use of all these thoughts and knowledge that has been collected over the years in respect to this life....

Yes somehow.. is there anyone doing the choosing?
Who chooses? If anyone?

I have spent a lot of time reading the gateless gatecrashers over the past two days and thinking about the questions you have asked so I will now attempt to answer.

No one seems to be in control of the body, so what is happening there?

I guess that the body does what it does as a result of "lifeing"- I have never believed I controlled the breathing or the heart beat or circulation so I suppose it is not really a stretch to believe that the body moves and dresses and drives by the same operation and no director is required. This is beginning to make sense now.

I'm glad you're reading this. Just be patient.
It can take some time for all this to really sink in.
I can assure that it does.
It's challenging most all of what you've known and been taught.

No one seems to be controlling and generating the thoughts either.
So how is a choice made if not in thought?
Or is a choice even made at all?

The thoughts must come into the mind and the mind chooses the thought it will entertain?? This is all I can come up with here..there is no self to choose yet there are definite likes that the character Kristin has so the mind must choose with the knowledge of the story of Kristin?

I don't think anyone knows.
What is apparent is that we dont really have control -if its really looked at with fresh eyes.
Yes there are preferences, but is there an 'I' choosing?

Well its a very simple thing that needs to be resolved...
There is this thought, I,... and once you see that I is just a thought
And you see that thought itself does not think
It clicks!
Its very very simple.

I intellectualy get this statement that there is no I. I is just another thought. I also understand that thoughts do not think... now I wait for it to click. I do believe what I am reading but the feeling of an I remains still within me.. hopefully you do not get too frustrated with me Bill!

Thank you so much.

I just wanted to see where you are with this little koan we use after a few days.
Don't worry about me, its you who are probably more frustrated.

Kristin, you are looking right at how your I is contructed.
Starting way back when you were 2 or 3 yrs old.
Can you find an I, other than in your thoughts?
It's kind of like Santa Claus, a character that we believe in...
then we see, it's no where to be found in reality!
Can we still believe it?

This I is claiming to live your life.
LOOK to see this.
You don't have to lose the character, its necessary to get along in the world.
Look at how its constructed, thought by thought.

If you LOOK and can't find anything...look at the 'nothing'
Right there.
What is behind the illusion of the I?

[kristin]

Hi Bill,
Thank goodness it is the weekend and I can lend even more time to this process- working full time and being a mom seem to get in the way of what seems even more important at this moment in time.

Yes somehow.. is there anyone doing the choosing?
Who chooses? If anyone?

No I cannot find that there is anyone doing the choosing yet there is a feeling of a presence at all times...

Yes there are preferences, but is there an 'I' choosing?

I cannot find there is an I choosing but still a presence.. I am sitting typing and the words are coming fast..yet no I chose them they just landed in my thoughts and then the fingers are typing...yet the words resonate with what is being felt in this moment..

The I is still very strong and sometimes it is hard to really look like there is a resistance here..so many thoughts/distractions keep rushing in to cloud the clear thinking.. it is hard to look at what is behind the I because there is so much intereference at times!
Yes I am a little frustrated but still very hopeful and committed to finding the truth.
Thanks so much for your patience with this process.

Kristin

[Bill]

No I cannot find that there is anyone doing the choosing yet there is a feeling of a presence at all times...

I cannot find there is an I choosing but still a presence.. I am sitting typing and the words are coming fast..yet no I chose them they just landed in my thoughts and then the fingers are typing...yet the words resonate with what is being felt in this moment..

Yes there is a feeling of self, a feeling of being.
But is that an entity?
Can you find a self there?
Just LOOK.

The I is still very strong and sometimes it is hard to really look like there is a resistance here..so many thoughts/distractions keep rushing in to cloud the clear thinking.. it is hard to look at what is behind the I because there is so much intereference at times!
Yes I am a little frustrated but still very hopeful and committed to finding the truth.
Thanks so much for your patience with this process.

Kristin,

You are at the point now where you will really need to LOOK.
Just LOOK.
When we tell people to LOOK, we mean to let the mind relax
and use all the other senses (like in this video http://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c )

There is a point where no more knowledge of this can be gained intellectually
and even if it could, it doesn't cut it.
That's why it can't be gotten through books.
It has to be seen.
Just LOOK.
Can you find an I?

Is there a 'you' that exists, in reality?
Or is it only just a thought?
Just a story that's been constructed since
you were very young and built up and all have
bought into...

My suggestion is to try as hard as you can to figure it out..
then just let go of all of it.
Relax.
See what happens...

If there are fears coming up, bring them up so we can look at them.
fear is a protection device and works to protect the self from being seen.
but there is no self, so in reality nothing can hurt an 'I'.
If fear is there for you, let it come, don't resist it being there.
Let it come up and be there and look at it.
See if there is anything real behind it..


Take your time.
There's no hurry.
You're not really going anywhere or getting anything.
We're already there and there is nothing to get.
LOOK and see.

[Bill]

Kristin

I forgot to emphasize something...

When we LOOK..
We are LOOKING here... right now... what's here right in front of us
Not at thoughts or the past or any mind stuff.

THIS, what is in front of us that we can see and hear and touch.
That's whats real. Thoughts are real, but the content may or may not be
and its always of something that is in the past.

So LOOK here and now.

[kristin]

Hi Bill,

Just spending time looking now.. I will let you know when I get somewhere with this. Thanks for your support.
Kristin

[kristin]

Hi Billy,

I am back from my holidays now- I thought I would have wireless but did not. I have spent a great deal of time Looking though.
I am better able to let thoughts come and go and emotions as well. I do realize that there really is no me to get all caught up in things that there is just experience. When I was driving home a car almost side swiped us "my" fault, of course the body had a really big adrenalin rush as a result. This time though I was able to quickly see that nothing happenned- it was an experience and "I" did not spend the next hour focused on it or beating myself up..I just let it go. This was a very new way to experience life for me.
It is like I look but I do not see- if that makes any sense at all. I want to see the optical illusion and I fuzzy my focus but just canot see what is right there and others are seeing.
Any help is always appreciated.
Thanks!

[Bill]

I am back from my holidays now- I thought I would have wireless but did not. I have spent a great deal of time Looking though.
I am better able to let thoughts come and go and emotions as well. I do realize that there really is no me to get all caught up in things that there is just experience. When I was driving home a car almost side swiped us "my" fault, of course the body had a really big adrenalin rush as a result. This time though I was able to quickly see that nothing happenned- it was an experience and "I" did not spend the next hour focused on it or beating myself up..I just let it go. This was a very new way to experience life for me.
It is like I look but I do not see- if that makes any sense at all. I want to see the optical illusion and I fuzzy my focus but just canot see what is right there and others are seeing.
Any help is always appreciated.
Thanks!

Good to see you back Kristin.
Can you commit to posting daily?
This will help keep the continuity in the process.

On the LOOKING.. its not like we are squinting or fuzzying the focus.
Its more like pure perception we're going for.
Perception BEFORE all the names, labels and stories are put on.
We are all doing it all the time. This kind of seeing.
It's our native or basic state.

Kristin - please get that I can't give you a tip or a question,
that is going to enlighten you by itself.
What has to happen, is you have to LOOK.
its the only thing that has to happen.
Only one good LOOK is all you need.
Let go and LOOK.

It is right here in front of you.
There is no I.
It is just a thought in your head.

I will keep repeating this about the LOOKING
because it is all you need to do.
Your homework is to find out what it means (To LOOK)
We've gone over it several times.
And many other threads have expounded upon it.
Especially in the 'liberations section'.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/viewforum.php?f=5
This is the last and only thing needed.
you have to do the work to get it.
Let go of all and I mean ALL of your expectations of enlightenment.
And just LOOK.
It is here.


You said above that, "I do realize that there really is no me to get all caught up in things that there is just experience." Tell me about that. What did you realize and how does it feel? Discuss it. Kristin's words..
Is there an I?
Anywhere?
Was there ever?
Will there ever really be one?

[kristin]

Hi Bill,
Yes I can commit to posting once per day.. although it will likely be in the evenings.
To answer your question..
[quote][You said above that, "I do realize that there really is no me to get all caught up in things that there is just experience." Tell me about that. What did you realize and how does it feel? Discuss it. Kristin's words..
Is there an I?
Anywhere?
Was there ever?
Will there ever really be one?quote]
I have looked closely and I can find no "I".. this has resonated with me deeply although there continues to be the constant commentary in the head. I feel differently.. there is no need to get to caught up in what is happening in my life. I realized this as I am going through a relationship break up and suddenly I do not need to be overwhelmed with guilt, fear or anxiety. I am able to watch as a thought or emotion comes in to my head/body and then let it go..it is an experience and there is no need to own it or call it mine... I am not certain how to explain it but it feels so much lighter than before. I do not have to relive past experiences over and over or ruminate on them as I used to.

Is there an I .. no not that I can locate.. I try looking from all angles and there are a whole lot of thoughts and so much labelling of stuff mostly in a possesive way. I believe there was never an I nor will there be one..it is not possible as I cannot feel an "I" or see or touch an "I". So I know for certain it is made up an illusion -yet the lableing continues.

Now onto the homework of what it means to LOOK...
Thanks again!

[Bill]

[You said above that, "I do realize that there really is no me to get all caught up in things that there is just experience." Tell me about that. What did you realize and how does it feel? Discuss it. Kristin's words..
Is there an I?
Anywhere?
Was there ever?
Will there ever really be one?quote]
I have looked closely and I can find no "I".. this has resonated with me deeply although there continues to be the constant commentary in the head. I feel differently.. there is no need to get to caught up in what is happening in my life. I realized this as I am going through a relationship break up and suddenly I do not need to be overwhelmed with guilt, fear or anxiety. I am able to watch as a thought or emotion comes in to my head/body and then let it go..it is an experience and there is no need to own it or call it mine... I am not certain how to explain it but it feels so much lighter than before. I do not have to relive past experiences over and over or ruminate on them as I used to.

Is there an I .. no not that I can locate.. I try looking from all angles and there are a whole lot of thoughts and so much labelling of stuff mostly in a possesive way. I believe there was never an I nor will there be one..it is not possible as I cannot feel an "I" or see or touch an "I". So I know for certain it is made up an illusion -yet the lableing continues.

Now onto the homework of what it means to LOOK...
Thanks again!

Very nice Kristin!
I like the examples you use from your life.

Keep on the homework.... how to LOOK.
it is there to be found.. dig till you find it.

Just one question today..

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Please be thorough and detailed... Your last response was great!

[kristin]

Hi Bill,

So I will try my best to answer todays question;

[quote]
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
/quote]

The illusion of a seperate self has pretty much always been there as far back as I can remember although there were times when I think life felt more vivid or real somehow when I was very young. I have flashes of times where I would be outside at the beach or in nature and all of life seemed more connected I felt no seperation like I was the sun and the breeze this is what I imagine liberation might feel like...
I think we are taught to feel this seperation at such a young age by our parents and families...everything is mine or yours and we see us and all that we have as being in some sort of a catagory and we fall into the category of self. What a lonely way to be!! Seperate different and alone.
Thanks Bill.

[Bill]

Hi Bill,

So I will try my best to answer todays question;

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
/quote]

The illusion of a seperate self has pretty much always been there as far back as I can remember although there were times when I think life felt more vivid or real somehow when I was very young. I have flashes of times where I would be outside at the beach or in nature and all of life seemed more connected I felt no seperation like I was the sun and the breeze this is what I imagine liberation might feel like...
I think we are taught to feel this seperation at such a young age by our parents and families...everything is mine or yours and we see us and all that we have as being in some sort of a catagory and we fall into the category of self. What a lonely way to be!! Seperate different and alone.
Thanks Bill.

Kristin - think of how the story of Kristin developed. Before you were two or three, as you were saying, there was no separation and no real sense of an I. Just watch babies and it so obvious. They're not ashamed or afraid of what people think of them. I was in the grocery store yesterday and kept hearing this shriek. Every minute or so I would hear this loud shriek from a baby. Then eventually I got to the aisle where the baby passed me.. he must have been 9 mos old or so. He would just LOOK, and when he saw something he liked, he shrieked. His whole face got into it with all he had. It was so delightful to see and I told his mother that I wished I could be that free myself to just do that whenever I felt like it... She laughed!

An I is a figment of almost every living human’s imaginataion. It’s the core of what we refer to when we say I, me, mine, myself… At a very young age, you start to know your name and then comes the sure process of identification with this image of yourself as an I. That’s me you tell yourself, this is MY stuff, MY face, body, family, life……….Look in the mirror, that’s me. The stories start and the I is at the very center of every one. I did this, I did that. I know this or that. Everything that comes into contact with the I sticks to it. Good and bad. The I likes it or hates it and every shade inbetween. The I is almost never satisfied. It gets what it thinks it wants, and then something else is wanted. The I is deeply afraid it won’t be someday and is continuously concocting schemes to protect itself and also how to get what it wants or at least what it thinks will ease the underlying suffering of separation it feels. It doesn’t know that it is feeling separation…..Just a deep knowing that something is missing. Not whole. Theres no end to it. Even though you can’t find an I anywhere in reality, this assumption is unquestioned by the world.

How do we LOOK?
What is that process?
How would you explain to someone else what it is?
And how its different from what we normally call seeing?

[kristin]

Hi Bill,

Todays question is the hardest yet. You asked me;

[quote]How do we LOOK?
What is that process?
How would you explain to someone else what it is?
And how its different from what we normally call seeing?/quote]

My first response was if I could really LOOK... I would not be struggling like I am.. I would be helping others to figure this out.
I know that I need to let everything go and just Look.. to see what comes before the lables are slapped on. Every time I attempt this my mind takes over..you are not doing it right.. focus harder... pay attention...its right in front of you.. This becomes so frustrating.. this is where I get stuck...
I know what it is to see- that is is for certain.. I see my image in the mirror, my hands typing on my computer. I feel my frustration at only seeing and not Looking!! I plan to keep looking and will try to come up with a better answer but wanted to let you know where I am at today..
Thanks.

[Bill]

Hi Bill,

Todays question is the hardest yet. You asked me;

How do we LOOK?
What is that process?
How would you explain to someone else what it is?
And how its different from what we normally call seeing?

My first response was if I could really LOOK... I would not be struggling like I am.. I would be helping others to figure this out.
I know that I need to let everything go and just Look.. to see what comes before the lables are slapped on. Every time I attempt this my mind takes over..you are not doing it right.. focus harder... pay attention...its right in front of you.. This becomes so frustrating.. this is where I get stuck...
I know what it is to see- that is is for certain.. I see my image in the mirror, my hands typing on my computer. I feel my frustration at only seeing and not Looking!! I plan to keep looking and will try to come up with a better answer but wanted to let you know where I am at today..
Thanks.

Kristin - this is good. It doesn't hurt to get a bit frustrated at this.
As long as you have the desire to see this thing.
It is here and you will see it if you have the desire.
As I've said, you do the digging and find out what you need to know and do.
You seem to be back into doing that after coming back.
Keep investigating the LOOKING.
Laurent 's video is so good on that.
The link is in a previous post.
I can't recommend that one video enough as his description is beautiful.

But Kristin actually has to LOOK.
No getting around it.
No tip or answer is going to do it.

What is the I that believes in thoughts?
Is it not just another thought appearing effortlessly?
Is the I thought something that believes in other thoughts?
How does that work?
Can one thought believe in another or do they just arise one after other?
LOOK - see what is true for you.

[kristin]

Hi Bill,

I am going to try to to answer this question you asked;

What is the I that believes in thoughts?
Is it not just another thought appearing effortlessly?
Is the I thought something that believes in other thoughts?
How does that work?
Can one thought believe in another or do they just arise one after other?

The I that believes in thoughts is really just a thought itself- because the truth is that I is just a thought. I have found no I anywhere and know that it is just a thought. Because I is just a thought it it cannot believe in other thoughts-- thoughts cannot think. Thoughts just arise one after another- often they seem connected but they are just individual thoughts.
Today I sat in my car and just decided to think about I and thoughts..I realized that if I is just a thought it obviously cannot think thoughts! So yes these thoughts just float in....that being said I still feel this is a very intellectually thinking answer... I do not feel it as the truth and wonder if I have some fear that could be in the way. It seems when I try to really look closely my mind gets busy right away and lots of negative thoughts pop in such as "you cannot see what is not there"... "this looking is beyond you"... and I try to figure out what am I so afraid of...I cannot decide if it is a fear of failing at this or something more..

I will continue to look and I thank you so very much for your patience Bill!

[Bill]

The I that believes in thoughts is really just a thought itself- because the truth is that I is just a thought. I have found no I anywhere and know that it is just a thought. Because I is just a thought it it cannot believe in other thoughts-- thoughts cannot think. Thoughts just arise one after another- often they seem connected but they are just individual thoughts.
Today I sat in my car and just decided to think about I and thoughts..I realized that if I is just a thought it obviously cannot think thoughts! So yes these thoughts just float in....that being said I still feel this is a very intellectually thinking answer... I do not feel it as the truth and wonder if I have some fear that could be in the way. It seems when I try to really look closely my mind gets busy right away and lots of negative thoughts pop in such as "you cannot see what is not there"... "this looking is beyond you"... and I try to figure out what am I so afraid of...I cannot decide if it is a fear of failing at this or something more..

I will continue to look and I thank you so very much for your patience Bill!

two short exercises Kristin...

Good that you're seeing this.
Let the fear come up. whatever comes, let it in.
Just look at it...even tif it is a fear.
Notice the fear comes as a result of what's being thought.
If its there, talk to the fear, welcome it. ask it what its trying to protect.
Allow it to be and look behind the fear.
Is there anything there, anything behind it?


Kristin - what is happening right in this moment?
With your 5 senses, what do you experience?
sights, sounds, taste, touch, sensations, smells....
even thoughts.. just list what is there.
don't draw any preconceived conclusions.