Ready to dive in...

[vinceschubert]

just writing that sends "me" reeling...

Investigate this and expand on it. Do you mean that the me feels like a drunken sailor about to fall down ?

[ixturtle]

:-)
Drunken sailor is a nice image though not quite accurate. I just meant that it seems when I try to pick apart this core piece, I tend to drop into a hypersensitive (read: childish) despairing like quality. Day to day life rarely triggers it. This process (as with others in the past aimed at peeling away layers) has triggered it a bunch.

Today there's a sense of settling, but a nagging voice about not wanting to waste anyone's time and a recollection from Eloratea way back at the beginning of this string about being "ready."

In quiet, I see the difference between "real" and "imagined." Cam-RT at one point challenged me to see that without "I", "clarity, safety and happiness" are accessible here and now. This was a big seeing for me, as was seeing (at least in deeper ways than I had before) the impersonal uncontrollable mind in action and the degree to which thoughts are the birth of problems. Meanwhile Derek kept pointing me to look for the non-existent "I", which of course, I never concretely found.

And yet...

[vinceschubert]

And yet...

and yet, what ? Doubt thoughts ?
The bigger the rant, the more there is to work with.
Don't think, don't consider, don't edit. Just type and post.

[ixturtle]

The bigger the rant, the more there is to work with. Don't think, don't consider, don't edit. Just type and post.

Wow... that's a slightly intimidating invitation.

So... "And yet...":

I feel this whole this whole process is a waste of energy, like everything I try ends up leading to dead ends and "me" feeling like a failure. I read somewhere recently that this whole endeavor of "waking up" is just a process for over-privileged folks with too much time on their hands and sometimes I wonder if its true. I look at the suffering in the world and get buried under the weight. I look at my own suffering and it seems ridiculously childish-- and yet I can't seem to get out from under it. So fortunate am I. And so much joy I've learned to cultivate and share and discover over the years of "practice"... and yet buried beneath is this crushing sadness. This dismantling of a false self has seemed the only thing that rings true and the only way out (for me, maybe for the world). After years of seeking, I've watched my hopes and confidence go up and down -- moments of clarity and spaciousness and understanding followed by tremendous disappointment from the hypocrisy I see (among practitioners, teachers, and also my own failure)-- so much that I don't know what to feel or believe or do any more.

But I think you wanted me to rant on the self and not the process... so here goes. I know I'm extremely identified with my body, though I suppose most folks are. I fear pain and I fear fear way more than death, which at least seems quiet, but the health and wellness of this body are high priorities for me. Really, how could this body not be "me"? I see that "my" is a label "I" attach to my body and otherwise its just a body, like any other. No more or less valuable. But the mind is pretty relentless in this regard. The mind is an unstoppable swirl of thoughts and emotions that ultimately are directed toward trying to comfort the body and ease the mind, but so much of that swirl is useless and painful and misdirected. I'm so incredibly tired of it and yet I keep doing it. And I keep slipping into stories and drowning in emotions.

And so what if the mind is all imagined-- it's running the show and I'm at the mercy of it (apparently) and I'm sick of it but what's there to do. Mostly I just feel helpless. And stuck. And "I" want to chuck this computer across the room and disappear.

So that's the (mostly) unedited rant of the day...
(And would you believe most people think of me as an incredibly stable and happy person...?! I guess I am mostly, and there have been periods of time in the last few years when it feels authentic and growing, but at the moment not so much...)

[vinceschubert]

The mind is an unstoppable swirl of thoughts and emotions that ultimately are directed toward trying to comfort the body and ease the mind, but so much of that swirl is useless ... and misdirected.

Yes, this is conditioning and after years of doing it, it will probably not stop abruptly (though it may). After 'awakening', de-conditioning starts. But, tell me this. How is (will it be) possible for it to continue, yet be perfect(ly Ok) ?

and also my own failure

Failure at what ?

and yet buried beneath is this crushing sadness.

This would be so for anybody who has wandered away from 'home' and is lost. (you are on the way home now)

I don't know what to feel or believe or do any more.

Not comfortable, but a great place to be for the purpose of the journey home.

I'm extremely identified with my body,

Rather than just say the words (that thoughts conclude), investigate, examine. How do you experience this identification ? (from experiencing)

the mind is all imagined

The mind is not imagined. It is real. It's the content that refers to the imaginary.

it's running the show

and will continue to do so while there is blind acceptance of it's content.

but what's there to do.

Just LOOK and see the fallacy for what it is.

I just feel helpless.

This can be very useful. Surrender is often a portal to the SEEing.

And "I" want to chuck this computer across the room

Frustration can lead to surrender.

"I" want to ... disappear.

The "I" will remain as what it is, a story, and that has it's uses.

Great rant ix, lots to 'work' with.
Go slowly and then re-read the pointers. Let them soak in. Any one of them may trigger SEEing, or there may be an accumulative effect.
Respond (with another rant) when ready.

love
vince

[ixturtle]

Hi Vince--
got your spot-on notes this morning and wanted to spend some time with them before responding... now i just realized with you half a world away that you're probably off to bed already. my apologies...

How is (will it be) possible for it to continue, yet be perfect(ly Ok)

it could continue and be perfect if I didn't take any of that conditioning seriously (in other words, the blind acceptance/indulgence as "true" shifts to spacious acceptance/knowing as "not true"... but REALLY, WHO IS THE "I" THAT STOPS BLINDLY ACCEPTING/INDULGING? i know, i know, there is no "who" because there is no "I"... sigh. so then, WHAT stops blindly accepting? is it some aspect of the mind itself that sees its own game? i suppose it's more correct to say blind acceptance just stops happening?

How do you experience this identification ?

well, when mosquitoes bite me "I" really don't like it. and when my shoulder hurts i feel sad because it limits "me" from doing things i love. and when "I" see more grey hair I wince a bit but remind myself of my commitment to age gracefully. and when i think i might run into a bear on a path, i get a rush of mostly irrational thoughts about why i shouldn't go there. and slowing it all down, this body has all manor of sensations-- which the mind labels pleasant and unpleasant and takes personally, calls them "MY" sensations and reacts accordingly. and the mind has a story about the body through images-- growing up, growing older. the mind says that the photo of me as a child is ME and the photo someone posted this morning on facebook is ME. and that's MY scar on MY knee that happened when I was 6. and every image is attached to a story and every story is attached to sensations. and all these images and stories and sensations lumped together is one (albeit ever changing/morphing/evolving) ME.

you are on the way home now

this made sad heart hyperventilate a bit this morning-- i'm not sure whether because it/I believe you or because it/I don't. but i do deeply appreciate the confidence.

Just LOOK and see the fallacy for what it is.

oh if I had a nickel for every time one of you has told me to "just look"...

speaking of which, i would define my failure in this endeavor so far as my seeming inability to complete this task of "just looking" successfully!

love love,
ix

[ixturtle]

that last bit came out a bit flippant... i get that to "look" is a matter of seeing what's real and what's not-- simply seeing what's obvious and true without thinking about it. but it doesn't seem to penetrate perspective in any real way-- thus "failure to see". also, i wonder (who wonders?) whether its more useful to set the lens on this distinction-- a universe of true (real) and not true (mind content)-- or on the fallacy of the self in particular.

[vinceschubert]

now i just realized with you half a world away that you're probably off to bed already. my apologies...

Responding happens when it does. i don't understand why the apology, but respond with "no apologies necessary" nothing to apologise for is noticed here.

as the blind acceptance/indulgence as "true" shifts to spacious acceptance/knowing as "not true"... but REALLY, WHO IS THE "I" THAT STOPS BLINDLY ACCEPTING/INDULGING?

The blind acceptance comes from conditioning (brain washing) the infant. It is so normal that it's not ever questioned (until you get here)
You presume a "WHO". Could you not say simply that "there is blind acceptance" ? Why does there have to be a 'who'

WHAT stops blindly accepting?

Blind accepting stops when blind accepting is seen to be happening. (still no who/what involved)

is it some aspect of the mind itself that sees its own game? i suppose it's more correct to say blind acceptance just stops happening?

Ha!, i didn't need to say the above as you came to it by yourself. (but i'll leave it there anyway)

well, when mosquitoes bite me "I" really don't like it.

Let's try this; "when a mosquito bites, there is an unpleasant sensation" (then mind kicks in with a story that includes a who and preferences etc.)

when my shoulder hurts i feel sad because it limits "me" from doing things i love.

When there is pain in the shoulder, the story about what I can't do dominates. (instead of what possibilities open up with a change in the kind of physical activity can be comfortably done.)

and all these images and stories and sensations lumped together is one (albeit ever changing/morphing/evolving) ME.

and that's fine as long as it's seen as a language convenience. It's the identification with the story where it all goes wrong.

oh if I had a nickel for every time one of you has told me to "just look"...

Yes, i know and also know that shouting it doesn't make it possible.
What i meant (and should/will say differently now) is JUST look. Don't allow thoughts to interfere/distort what is seen.

i would define my failure in this endeavor so far as my seeming inability to complete this task of "just looking" successfully!

If "just looking" hasn't happened (yet) then it hasn't happened. There has to be an I for there to be a failure. i don't see an I, even if you do and just because you do, it doesn't mean that one actually exists. (allow for the language convention in this sentence) Having said that, i do remember depression (not clinical) and frustration happening here for the same reason.

simply seeing what's obvious and true without thinking about it.

Ha! it happened again. You came the the same conclusion by yourself. (and once again, i will leave my response there)

i wonder (who wonders?)

i use the lower case i to denote that i am using it just as a language convention. You appear to be doing the same.

i wonder ...whether its more useful to set the lens on this distinction-- a universe of true (real) and not true (mind content)-- or on the fallacy of the self in particular.

It seems here that one is a subset of the other. The real doesn't include a self (seen here) as self is a product of mind.
What is real (from the perspective of that mind/body) is only what is directly experienced. Any interpretation of that is story. Once that is Seen, then the de-conditioning (of beliefs) starts.
Every time a belief arises and is Seen for what it is (a story) then that belief either completely evaporates or is weakened and will re-occur less frequently.
Once awakening (to the illusion of a self) occurs, the journey actually starts. It never ends. (i know of nobody who claims to have finished it)
i say again (with no intention to give you confidence or elicit any emotional response - though i accept one may occur) 'you' are closer than the thickness of a (greying) hair...

[ixturtle]

Wow there is so much here I feel i could spend a month with it all-- you have actually clarified quite a bit here. Will try to respond this afternoon though-- i'm actually headed back east this weekend on a two week bicycle/train/bicycle journey back home (yes, something I can do with a bum shoulder ;-) . i should have internet access most of the way though so i intend to keep posting en route, unless of course i gateless gate crash before Sunday...

(note: i've always been a lower case typer in casual emails, etc., so the lower case "i"s have heretofore been an accident. But your usage appeals and so "i" will now bring a little consciousness to them!)

[vinceschubert]

Ok, good stuff.
There is love overflowing here this morning. Hope it reaches you.

[ixturtle]

Blind accepting stops when blind accepting is seen to be happening.

So the thought arises, "all of what i'm thinking is not real." which of course, includes that thought as well. so it can't be a thought that recognizes blind acceptance, and then of course the thought arises, "if not a thought, what?" i know it's not a who or a what, it just is...

and yesterday in stillness i had a clear sense of that "just is", and of not owning anything at all, including my crazy mind. but then i re-engage with life and it brings me smack dab into my "SELF", because in day to day relationships any insight appears to vanish. And one of the trickiest things is... how do i even open my mouth to communicate anything because every word seems to communicate a thought which is presumed to be "real and true" but of course is all projection but in any case seems to undermine my very attempts to see through them. i suppose this is why practice/retreat life emphasizes silence, but my sense is that true seeing transcends this issue. yes? thoughts?

[vinceschubert]

yesterday in stillness i had a clear sense of that "just is", and of not owning anything at all, including my crazy mind. but then i re-engage with life and it brings me smack dab into my "SELF", because in day to day relationships any insight appears to vanish.

Yes, that cycling may go on for a while, but will change. More time with "what IS" and less time lost. Then the quality of the 'lost' changes too. Not so deep. Shorter.
What happens in that instant when having been lost is realised ?
It seems a thought arises that says "I was lost" which triggers 'not lost', but 'not lost' was already there a split second before the thought arrived.
What triggered the change of 'state' ? (no theory please - just experience)

how do i even open my mouth to communicate anything because...

Yes big problem for the newly liberated.
You communicate as you used to do, knowing that when you say I that it is just a language convenience. There would need to be a whole new language and everybody that you speak with would need to be conversant for it to work.
Even referring to yourself in the third person disrupts communication. (unless talking to another liberated)

my sense is that true seeing transcends this issue. yes?

Yes, nothing has changed, but everything is different.

[ixturtle]

Whoa-- i think you're WAY ahead of me here... i don't feel remotely liberated... i just had some moments yesterday that touched some seeing (like i said previously in this string a ways back-- more like a periscope seeing than direct seeing), and then that periscope gets knocked out of my hand when i try to engage with life again.

but i'll try to answer your question relative to the periscope:

What happens in that instant when having been lost is realised ?
It seems a thought arises that says "I was lost" which triggers 'not lost', but 'not lost' was already there a split second before the thought arrived.
What triggered the change of 'state' ? (no theory please - just experience)

ok-- so what happens before the thought, which for me is something like, "wow, i'm caught up in the story here..."? sometimes there is something in my environment that triggers this recognition-- reminds me to remember. but more often, the thought seems like it arises out of nowhere... so maybe its more like there's brief quiet space in the mind and and in that space awareness shines through for a moment. will try to pay attention in real time though.

sigh-- this is the second time i've said something that led you all to think more had shifted than really had. will try to be more careful with my words... it's a bummer to have to report otherwise.

[vinceschubert]

Haha, hey ix, what makes you (your thoughts) more qualified than us to recognise aspects of liberation ?
But this is a good segue into your expectations.
Do you have ideas that you will recognise, when you are 'through' ? (because of feelings?)

[ixturtle]

take two...

I was half-way through my best effort at a rant earlier today when a mix up happened with my bicycle (sent clear across the country, ironically to where i am headed) as which point i managed to lose the my post.

In any case, the gist of it was first, point well taken. i actually don't know what i'm looking for, because if i did, i probably wouldn't need help in finding it, especially since it's just a grey hair's breadth away, "more accessible than ice cream" i remember a teacher once said.

As for expectations of what being "through" would mean, this was where i tried to do my best rant, since that seems to prove useful here in this forum. Hard to recreate, but will do my best.
~that there would be no doubt that i was through
~that it would not only be obvious in the present, it would be obvious that it was always true
~that attachment to beliefs/stories would diminish-- i recognize that BS (a friend of mine's term for "beliefs and stories") take a lifetime to develop and at least that to diminish and also, in many ways this process has been going on for a dozen years or so (albeit sometimes two steps forward and one or two or three backward). suffice it to say that there's an expectation that that process would significantly accelerate
~that i would feel free-- which i realize is poorly worded as there would be no "I" to feel free and also because true freedom would have to include the feeling of "not free"... so let's just say, there would be a sense of freedom that arises
~that the notion of me vs. everything else diminishes
~that the whole concept of "I" would make me laugh until the cows come home
~that my mind would grow at least a little quieter, which i know isn't a given and would not be necessary, but it seems to me that when you really know beyond a shadow of a doubt that something isn't true, its natural for the energy devoted toward that thing to dry up
~i'm sure i also have some idea that i would be a nicer, more patient and more loving person but i can see that as more BS as well...

and for that matter, since all of the above are thoughts, i suppose it makes it all BS...

which reminds me, is it possible to "surrender" and still keep cracking away at this? i mean, if i threw up my hands and said, "i give up" (which, BTW, i don't think is genuine for me) then how could that be consistent with showing up here?

and lastly, what's the record number of posts for someone who actually got through? and am i in the running? or rather, i'm wondering whether there's an inverse correlation between the number of posts and the likelihood of getting through...?

peace,
ix