Vikasana & Forgetmenots thread

[forgetmenot]

Please do each exercise given as soon as possible and respond within a day or two.

Kay

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay.

Yesterday I did two sits looking at the nature of thought: one before work and one after work, plus one this morning.

I also tried to do it during work activities but I found that a bit tricky as I faced a particularly busy day running the shop at the learning disability centre I work at with ten/eleven deliveries as well as other shop duties. Today I'm off and I will continue to look at the nature of thought and actual experience.

When looking for fifteen minutes the first time I felt a bit stirred up thinking about the day ahead at work but this was my first attempt.I guess the more practice the better as you've mentioned. I noticed when looking there was sometimes a stream of thoughts seemingly where I didn't notice a gap, sometimes longer gaps without thought, drifting off into thought, perhaps subtle thoughts I missed, analyising, labelling, thoughts about future, bodily sensation/energy. And I presume there's no 'I' in these experience just simply actual experience.

Thank you for your guidance Kay. I'm very grateful for your time and efforts.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick

Looking for the gap was a way to slow thoughts down so that you could just observe each thought as they appeared. The observation of thought arising and subsiding was the objective of the exercise.

I noticed when looking there was sometimes a stream of thoughts seemingly where I didn't notice a gap, sometimes longer gaps without thought, drifting off into thought, perhaps subtle thoughts I missed, analyising, labelling, thoughts about future, bodily sensation/energy. And I presume there's no 'I' in these experience just simply actual experience.

With all the appeared when doing the exercise, did you get to see how thoughts just arose and subsided?

Kay

[Vikasana]

With all the appeared when doing the exercise, did you get to see how thoughts just arose and subsided?

As mentioned I drifted off a bit perhaps missing a subtle thought or had a strong sensation going on or the rest I've mentioned but I can see how thoughts come and go yes.

Thank you Kay.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Patrick,

As mentioned I drifted off a bit perhaps missing a subtle thought or had a strong sensation going on or the rest I've mentioned but I can see how thoughts come and go yes.

Great! So let’s continue with looking at thought with the following exercise.

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

K

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay.

I will get on with the next exersize and get back to you in a day or two.

I'm benefiting from your guidance. Thank you.

Love and best wishes Patrick.

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay.

I've done one thirty minute sit so far this morning and plan to do one tonight and one in the morning and get back to you tomorrow with my answers if that's ok by you?

Thanks Patrick.

[Vikasana]

Hi Kay. Sorry for any delay. I've managed just two thirty minute sits but don't want to delay further so here's my answers which I've put beside your questions in capital letters:

[Where are they coming from and going to? -I DON'T KNOW.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? -NO.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? -NO.
Can you predict your next thought? -NO.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? -NO.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts? -NO.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? -NO
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? -NO.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? -NO.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"? -NO ORGANIZED SEQUENCE AND ONE THOUGHT DOES FOLLOW ANOTHER THOUGHT.
/quote]

[forgetmenot]

Hey Patrick,

So can a thinker of thought be found? How did it feel to see that there is no controller/thinker of thought?

Kay

[Vikasana]

So can a thinker of thought be found? How did it feel to see that there is no controller/thinker of thought?

Hi Kay.

There is no thinker or controller to be found. Only actual experience of thinking.

I have been wondering about the last two answers I gave and I initially was writing a different response and then changed them both. The other questions are clear. What I was wondering is can a thought be stopped in the middle by going directly to sensation or is that just simply another thought to go to sensation to try and stop thought? And secondly can thoughts take content from previous thought or is it simply one thought following another thought as there can sometimes be a proliferation of thoughts around an issue or again is that simply just another thought about proliferation around an issue? It seems I've just answered my questions myself.

I'm not sure how it feels to see. I have looked at it before with my initial guide and I recall a sort of oh yes moment and wonder.

It certainly feels interesting and exciting with a sense of and energy and aliveness and clarity to be looking and I'm noticing benefits.

I'm very grateful for your guidance.

IIona contacted me today to ask why I hadn't completed my thread and would I like some guidance. I explained why and that I have a new thread and am being guided by yourself and she said she's happy to hear that and you're an excellent guide and I'm in good hands and encouraged me to complete the process.

With love Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Patrick,

So can a thinker of thought be found? How did it feel to see that there is no controller/thinker of thought?

There is no thinker or controller to be found. Only actual experience of thinking.

Is there actual experience of “thinking”? Is not the label “thinking” and the thoughts about what “thinking” is and what is supposedly “thinking”, simply AE of thought? What is it exactly that is “thinking”?

The label ‘thinking’ is AE of thought and not AE of thinking
The thoughts about ‘thinking’ and what thinking etc are AE of thought and not AE of thinking. All that is appearing is thoughts about thought.
Can you see this?

I have been wondering about the last two answers I gave and I initially was writing a different response and then changed them both. The other questions are clear. What I was wondering is can a thought be stopped in the middle by going directly to sensation or is that just simply another thought to go to sensation to try and stop thought?

Where exactly is a middle of a thought? Sit quietly for 5 minutes and just observe thought. Where does one thought end and another begin?

Let’s look at the idea of focus/attention.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus./attention does.
Focus on focussing attention itself.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

Hold focus on breath - see how focus moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Is thought in control of attention?

And secondly can thoughts take content from previous thought or is it simply one thought following another thought as there can sometimes be a proliferation of thoughts around an issue or again is that simply just another thought about proliferation around an issue? It seems I've just answered my questions myself.

Lovely, Patrick! Yes, it is simply another thought about proliferation of thoughts around an issue. Thoughts are what SEEM to be language…right? If you were to wake up tomorrow and thoughts were in a different language…how would you know what was ‘being thought’?

Thought A appears saying “I am cold”
Thought B appears saying “I need to go put on something warm”
Does thought A know of thought B and does thought B know of thought A? Are thoughts entities that know anything?

I'm very grateful for your guidance.

It is my pleasure Patrick. Thank you for being so willing to LOOK.

Love, Kay

[Vikasana]

Is there actual experience of “thinking”? Is not the label “thinking” and the thoughts about what “thinking” is and what is supposedly “thinking”, simply AE of thought? What is it exactly that is “thinking”?

The label ‘thinking’ is AE of thought and not AE of thinking
The thoughts about ‘thinking’ and what thinking etc are AE of thought and not AE of thinking. All that is appearing is thoughts about thought.
Can you see this?

-I CAN SEE THIS NOW THAT IT IS SIMPLY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OF THOUGHT, NOT THINKING.

Where exactly is a middle of a thought? Sit quietly for 5 minutes and just observe thought. Where does one thought end and another begin?

-THERE IS NO A MIDDLE OF A THOUGHT. JUST ACTUAL EXPERIENCE OF THOUGHT. I AM UNSURE AS TO WHERE ONE THOUGHT ENDS AND ANOTHER BEGINS.

Let’s look at the idea of focus/attention.
Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus./attention does.
Focus on focussing attention itself.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

Hold focus on breath - see how focus moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Is thought in control of attention?

-FOCUS/ATTENTION MOVES BY ITSELF. THERE IS NO YOU CONTROLLING FOCUS/ATTENTION. SOMETIMES IT SEEMS THERE IS NO FOCUS/ATTENTION, JUST DRIFTING OFF WHEN THERE IS NO EFFORT TO FOCUS OR BE ATTENTIVE.

Thought A appears saying “I am cold”
Thought B appears saying “I need to go put on something warm”
Does thought A know of thought B and does thought B know of thought A? Are thoughts entities that know anything?

-I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

The label ‘thinking’ is AE of thought and not AE of thinking
The thoughts about ‘thinking’ and what thinking etc are AE of thought and not AE of thinking. All that is appearing is thoughts about thought.
Can you see this?

-I can see this now that it is simply actual experience of thought, not thinking.

Great…an important distinction.

Where exactly is a middle of a thought? Sit quietly for 5 minutes and just observe thought. Where does one thought end and another begin?

-there is no a middle of a thought. Just actual experience of thought. I am unsure as to where one thought ends and another begins.

Exactly! It is like asking how long is a piece of string! So that you become sure, here is a step-by-step description on how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close the eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them. Looking for the gap is a way to slow the thoughts, as the objective of this exercise is to observe each and every thought as it arises and subsides. If you find that you have 'engaged with thoughts' then just gently bring your attention back to just observing them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how focus moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention? Is thought in control of attention?

-focus/attention moves by itself. There is no you controlling focus/attention. Sometimes it seems there is no focus/attention, just drifting off when there is no effort to focus or be attentive.

Great! So now you can answer your own question.

can a thought be stopped in the middle by going directly to sensation or is that just simply another thought to go to sensation to try and stop thought?

Thought a appears saying “i am cold”
thought b appears saying “i need to go put on something warm”
does thought a know of thought b and does thought b know of thought a? Are thoughts entities that know anything?

-i don't know the answer to these questions.

I am not asking if you KNOW the answers to these questions...I am asking you to LOOK to find the answers. Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10 minutes and observe thoughts as they arise and subside. Does any thought have any idea what thought came before it or after it? In other words can a thought predict what the next thought will be? Does a thought know what thought came before it? When doing the thought exercise you can observe to see what you find.

Does thought A "I am cold" know anything about other thoughts or that it is a thought itself? Is thought an aware entity? Is the thought “I am cold” alive and aware of itself or anything else? If you see the thought “I am cold” as a typewritten sentence across the forehead…does the thought itself know anything about being cold? Does the thought itself know that it is a thought?

Kay

[Vikasana]

Thank you Kay.

Yesterday evening when I looked at your message I was in quite a painful state so I probably wasn't in the best state of mind to look. I am having a few difficulties and feeling exhausted at present. I'd be happy to share these with you on a private thread or e-mail.

There are several things you've given me to look at. Shall I take a few days over these and come back to you? Also I'm off work Monday to give it more attention in addition to the weekend. Shall I come back to you Tuesday?

With love Patrick.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Patrick,

Yesterday evening when I looked at your message I was in quite a painful state so I probably wasn't in the best state of mind to look. I am having a few difficulties and feeling exhausted at present. I'd be happy to share these with you on a private thread or e-mail.

If you could share them, that would be great. You can use the forum's PM (private messaging) for this purpose.

There are several things you've given me to look at. Shall I take a few days over these and come back to you? Also I'm off work Monday to give it more attention in addition to the weekend. Shall I come back to you Tuesday?

If you need a few days, just post a quick note saying you will take a few days to do the exercises and you will get back to me when you have looked at them with attention. That way I know you are doing the exercises and that you will get back to me. You don't need to give me a specific day.

Love, Kay