So close... yet so far?

[Gray]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand this to mean the conceptual information (beliefs, ideas, thoughts etc.) falsely identified with as being part of and giving form to the belief of a permanent, real, separate, and individual self.

What are you looking for at LU?
I understand that there is no self. It seems clear, obvious, and simple. Yet I feel that it is important for me to properly verify whether I have truly seen through this illusion at the most fundamental, intuitive level, and not just at a superficial intellectual level. I am looking for a guide who can keep me honest and help me really see if I have gone far enough, that I am not fooling myself or caught in a dead-end belief trap.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I have no expectations, and am open to the process unfolding however it may. I am grateful for any assistance that could help me verify whether I have already stepped through the gate, and if I have not, to then guide me through, if possible.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been meditating for almost 3 years, predominantly following the methods and techniques outlined in the book The Mind Illuminated. I have also used self-inquiry regularly during this time.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[forgetmenot]

Hi Gray,

My name is Kay and I am happy to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions, but it is up to you to do the looking, as you have to see what is being pointed at for yourself; that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This is not about discovering what you are; it is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

With love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

Firstly, thank you for accepting to be my guide for this process. I really appreciate this, and look forward to working with you.

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

I have read the disclaimer and other links. Ready to begin!

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hey Gray,

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and using the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration, in your own words could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

With love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay!

My answers as follows.

How will life change?

The perception of life may change. But how? I cannot know until it happens, if it does.

How will you change?

The feeling is that answering this question is the same as answering the above, with 'Life' and 'You' being interchangeable.
Any supposed change would come about from a shift in the perception of how life does what it does. If that makes sense? In any case, assuming there is change, I wouldn’t know what it is until after it has taken place.

What will be different?

Again, if anything will be different, perhaps it will be in terms of the perspective from which life is viewed and how it is perceived.

What is missing?

Nothing comes to mind. There is no feeling of anything missing, or even out of place.

Thanks, Kay. I hope these answers are sufficient. Looking forward to digging deeper. :D

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hello Gray,

The purpose of the questions was for you and to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation may look like or fee like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and even blind siding the fact that the realisation has happened. However, we will see what expectations appear as we move through this guiding.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. Actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, LOOKING’ is just plain looking at actual experience (AE) in the current moment. It is no different to looking for your car keys when you think you have misplaced them. But instead of looking for car keys, you are looking at AE - the raw experience MINUS the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.




Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Throughout our exploration, what is highlighted in blue text is what I would like you to answer please. Don't forget to use the quote function.

Love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

My answers below.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

‘Apple’ is just a label; A name for the bundle of conceptual thoughts around the object being experienced by the senses. ‘Apple’ does not really exist nor can it be found in actual experience outside of the senses.

However, is an apple actually known?

No, ‘apple’ is not actually known. What is known is the individual sensory information (taste, smell, feel, image, thought). Thoughts bind these moments of actual sensory experience into the concept plus label ‘apple’.

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hey Gray,

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

‘Apple’ is just a label; A name for the bundle of conceptual thoughts around the object being experienced by the senses. ‘Apple’ does not really exist nor can it be found in actual experience outside of the senses.

What senses exactly are experiencing objects, and what is it that has these senses?

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay!

What senses exactly are experiencing objects, and what is it that has these senses?

All the senses—sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing—are experiencing objects at any given moment. There is also the mind sense, which labels objects the other senses give rise to. The body is the conduit or receptacle through which the senses and their sense-objects are interpreted and understood by consciousness.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

I have found that there is some subtle resistance to consciously labelling daily activities, as it's not my usual mode of operation. But when looking in this way there is also an ability to further break down the object into finer details of perception that can also be labelled or noted. This happens almost below the surface on an unconscious level, but can be clearly seen when attention is sharp and focused (in the lists below these are in italics). I have also noticed that I am not able to keep up this kind of labelling / noting practice for very long!

My experience today with labelling is as follows:

When adding sugar to my cup of tea:

• Thought of needing sugar – thought
• Sugar container – seeing
• Seeing details, markings, colour, shape and material of the container
• Opening container – feeling and hearing
• Feeling smooth surface of the container punctuated by scratches
• Looking at sugar – seeing
• Seeing individual size, colour, and shape of the grains of sugar
• Pouring sugar – hearing
• Hearing individual sound, timber, tone and pitch of each grain hitting the cup.

When walking:

• Walking / moving – feeling
• Feeling clothing moving against skin, texture of the cloth
• Feeling pressure on feet from hardness of ground, shifting of weight
• Air blowing on face and body – feeling
• Feeling texture and location of air blown on body
• Ambient sounds – hearing
• Hearing sounds of traffic, people, birds, trees etc.
• Smells of food, rubbish, car exhaust etc. - smelling
• Smelling plus thoughts (pleasant / unpleasant, no thoughts if neutral).

When typing on laptop:

• Fingers typing on keyboard – feeling
• Feeling of pressure on fingers, texture of key surface
• Sound of keys – hearing
• Hearing individual sound, pitch, tone etc. of the keys
• Thoughts about what to type – thinking
• Observing various thoughts about what is being typed (correct, incorrect, good, bad etc.)
• Laptop screen – seeing
• Noticing of the individual characters appearing on screen as typing happens

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hello Gray,

What senses exactly are experiencing objects, and what is it that has these senses?

All the senses—sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing—are experiencing objects at any given moment. There is also the mind sense, which labels objects the other senses give rise to. The body is the conduit or receptacle through which the senses and their sense-objects are interpreted and understood by consciousness.

When doing the apple exercise, was an actual apple found in AE or there were simply colour + thoughts ABOUT an apple?

So, if an apple (which thought classifies as an object) is not found in AE, then what is it exactly that is sensing anything?

Can colour sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can colour sense and object?
Can smell sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can smell sense an object?
Can taste sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can taste sense an object?
Can sensation sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can sensation sense an object?
Can sound sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can sound sense an object?
Can thought sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can thought sense an object?
If not, then what is it exactly that is sensing or is using or has senses?

There is also the mind sense, which labels objects the other senses give rise to. The body is the conduit or receptacle through which the senses and their sense-objects are interpreted and understood by consciousness.

Where exactly can this ‘mind’ be found in AE? Describe this “mind” to me in precise detail and where it is located.

We will look at the body later on.

And describe to me in precise detail where “consciousness” resides and what it looks like.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

I have found that there is some subtle resistance to consciously labelling daily activities, as it's not my usual mode of operation. But when looking in this way there is also an ability to further break down the object into finer details of perception that can also be labelled or noted.

Of course it's not anyone's usual mode of operation, and the point of this whole exercise is for it to become your usual mode of operation. Becoming aware of actual experience and noticing what thought says about actual experience is the key to this exploration.

Resistance is impossible, how can what already is, be resisted? It is only an appearing thought that says “I am resisting ………”. Thoughts are actual experience (AE) and either point to actual experience or thought stories. Can a sensation or thought be resisted? What is it exactly that is resisting?

This happens almost below the surface on an unconscious level, but can be clearly seen when attention is sharp and focused (in the lists below these are in italics). I have also noticed that I am not able to keep up this kind of labelling / noting practice for very long!

There is nothing unknown. There is no such thing an an "unconscious level"! For something to be unknown points to separation and there is no such thing as separation.

My experience today with labelling is as follows:

When adding sugar to my cup of tea:
• Thought of needing sugar – thought
• Sugar container – seeing
• Seeing details, markings, colour, shape and material of the container
• Opening container – feeling and hearing
• Feeling smooth surface of the container punctuated by scratches
• Looking at sugar – seeing
• Seeing individual size, colour, and shape of the grains of sugar
• Pouring sugar – hearing
• Hearing individual sound, timber, tone and pitch of each grain hitting the cup.

All what you have in italics is story. I am only interested in actual experience (AE).

What is the actual experience (AE) of the following? Is it smell, taste, thought, colour, sensation or sound?

• Seeing details, markings, colour, shape and material of the container
• Feeling smooth surface of the container punctuated by scratches
• Seeing individual size, colour, and shape of the grains of sugar
• Hearing individual sound, timber, tone and pitch of each grain hitting the cup.

The whole point of becoming aware of AE is to become aware of what actually IS (ie actual experience) and noticing what thoughts says ABOUT AE which is thought story. (ie all your italic sentences). Thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about AE which are simply thoughts about thoughts.

What is it exactly that is seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking, smelling and feeling? Describe in details what it is that is doing these things

Love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay,

Thank you! That was a lot to chew on. Interesting to witness some uncomfortable feelings and emotions bubble up from this already. Feeling very thankful to undergo this process.

Anyway, here are my answers!

When doing the apple exercise, was an actual apple found in AE or there were simply colour + thoughts ABOUT an apple?

No, an actual apple was not found in AE, just the colour plus thoughts about the apple.

So, if an apple (which thought classifies as an object) is not found in AE, then what is it exactly that is sensing anything?

Hmm… consciousness is sensing.

Can colour sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can colour sense and object?

No. Colour itself cannot sense an object, it is just a concept / label.

Can smell sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can smell sense an object?

No. Like colour, smell itself cannot sense an object, it is only a concept / label.

Can taste sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can taste sense an object?

No. Taste is a label / concept and cannot sense an object.

Can sensation sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can sensation sense an object?

No. Sensation is again just a label and cannot itself sense an object.

Can sound sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can sound sense an object?

No. Sound is also simply a label / concept and cannot sense an object.

Can thought sense colour, smell, taste, sensation, thought, sound? Can thought sense an object?

No. As with the above, thought also cannot sense an object.

If not, then what is it exactly that is sensing or is using or has senses?

Consciousness is sensing via the body’s sense organs.

Where exactly can this ‘mind’ be found in AE? Describe this “mind” to me in precise detail and where it is located.

Mind cannot be found or actually located in AE!

And describe to me in precise detail where “consciousness” resides and what it looks like.

Consciousness does not reside anywhere. It is everywhere and everything. It looks like life, the universe.

Resistance is impossible, how can what already is, be resisted? It is only an appearing thought that says “I am resisting ………”. Thoughts are actual experience (AE) and either point to actual experience or thought stories. Can a sensation or thought be resisted? What is it exactly that is resisting?

Ahhh… indeed! Sensation or thought cannot be resisted in AE, there is only the thought of resisting, which becomes identified with as a ‘doing’ of resistance.

What is the actual experience (AE) of the following? Is it smell, taste, thought, colour, sensation or sound?
• Seeing details, markings, colour, shape and material of the container

Colour plus thought.

• Feeling smooth surface of the container punctuated by scratches

Sensation plus thought.

• Seeing individual size, colour, and shape of the grains of sugar

Colour plus thought.

• Hearing individual sound, timber, tone and pitch of each grain hitting the cup.

Sound plus thought.

What is it exactly that is seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking, smelling and feeling? Describe in details what it is that is doing these things.

Consciousness experiences seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking, smelling, and feeling through the body’s sense organs.

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hello Gray,

Thank you! That was a lot to chew on. Interesting to witness some uncomfortable feelings and emotions bubble up from this already. Feeling very thankful to undergo this process.

If sensations labelled as ‘feelings’ become strong or too intense…let me know and we can look at them together.

When doing the apple exercise, was an actual apple found in AE or there were simply colour + thoughts ABOUT an apple?

No, an actual apple was not found in AE, just the colour plus thoughts about the apple.

Lovely!

So, if an apple (which thought classifies as an object) is not found in AE, then what is it exactly that is sensing anything?

Hmm… consciousness is sensing.

Can something labelled as “consciousness” be found in actual experience?

If not, then what is it exactly that is sensing or is using or has senses?

Consciousness is sensing via the body’s sense organs.

That points to separation…there being something called “consciousness” which is perceiving through something called “body’s sense organs”. There is no perceiver AND perceived. Something to just ponder…since there is no ‘apple’ in AE…is there a ‘body’ in AE?

Where exactly can this ‘mind’ be found in AE? Describe this “mind” to me in precise detail and where it is located.

Mind cannot be found or actually located in AE!

Exactly! :)

Resistance is impossible, how can what already is, be resisted? It is only an appearing thought that says “I am resisting ………”. Thoughts are actual experience (AE) and either point to actual experience or thought stories. Can a sensation or thought be resisted? What is it exactly that is resisting?

Ahhh… indeed! Sensation or thought cannot be resisted in AE, there is only the thought of resisting, which becomes identified with as a ‘doing’ of resistance.

Beautiful…yes!

What is it exactly that is seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking, smelling and feeling? Describe in details what it is that is doing these things.

Consciousness experiences seeing, hearing, tasting, thinking, smelling, and feeling through the body’s sense organs.

Nothing can exist outside of experience itself (or what you call “consciousness). Nor can anything exist inside experience, that would imply that there is an outside. There is just experience.


Okay, moving onto thought. Please continue to break down daily activities into AE so you become clear about AE.

Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Kay :)

[Gray]

Hello Kay!

If sensations labelled as ‘feelings’ become strong or too intense…let me know and we can look at them together.

Thank you! I will keep that in mind.

Can something labelled as “consciousness” be found in actual experience?

No, it cannot!

That points to separation…there being something called “consciousness” which is perceiving through something called “body’s sense organs”. There is no perceiver AND perceived. Something to just ponder…since there is no ‘apple’ in AE…is there a ‘body’ in AE?

True, the way I have worded it does indeed point to separation where there really is none. Body is just image plus thoughts.

Nothing can exist outside of experience itself (or what you call “consciousness). Nor can anything exist inside experience, that would imply that there is an outside. There is just experience.

Yes! This is something I have had insight into; that there is no clear distinction between ‘in here’ and ‘out there’. The illusion that there is can be quite convincing, though.

Where are they coming from and going to?

There is no location where thoughts come from and go to.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, there is no doing or doer that makes a thought appear.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No!

Can you predict your next thought?

Like this one that says ‘no’? Predicting the future would be amazing!

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Ahh, eternal bliss! Unfortunately, nope.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Life would be perfect. No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

It would be nice to have a ‘favourite thoughts’ list handy to choose from… but no.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Nope.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

That would imply that the thought should have been something other than what it actually was. Thoughts also don’t have a beginning, middle or end.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

I don’t find that thought has any logical ordered appearance or sequence, or is part of some predetermined pattern. The impression that one thought follows from another thought—two unique thoughts one after another—is an illusion. There is no actual boundary that marks the end of one thought and the beginning of another.

Best,

Gray

[forgetmenot]

Hi Gray,

Thank you for the chuckles I had reading your responses to the thoughts pointers. :)

That points to separation…there being something called “consciousness” which is perceiving through something called “body’s sense organs”. There is no perceiver AND perceived. Something to just ponder…since there is no ‘apple’ in AE…is there a ‘body’ in AE?

True, the way I have worded it does indeed point to separation where there really is none. Body is just image plus thoughts.

Nice :)

Nothing can exist outside of experience itself (or what you call “consciousness). Nor can anything exist inside experience, that would imply that there is an outside. There is just experience.

Yes! This is something I have had insight into; that there is no clear distinction between ‘in here’ and ‘out there’. The illusion that there is can be quite convincing, though.

To what exactly is “the illusion quite convincing”? Is that not just another appearing thought? And what is that thought pointing to? Does it point to AE or?


You seem to have a good understanding on how thoughts work…so we shall move onto the idea of control/decisions/choices.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love, Kay

[Gray]

Hello Kay!

To what exactly is “the illusion quite convincing”? Is that not just another appearing thought? And what is that thought pointing to? Does it point to AE or?

It would indeed be another thought, that does not point to AE… it doesn’t seem to point to anything?

How is the movement controlled?

No idea! Is the movement actually controlled? What would make it uncontrolled? Can’t find the distinction. Cool!

Does a thought control it?

No… if thought controlled movement, then to what potentially infinite degree could this be divided? How many thoughts would be needed for even simple movements or actions? Doesn’t make sense.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No one / thing / seems to be at the controls… Amusing thought; would a videogame character think the same thing if they could think?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

I don’t know! It just seems to happen. Looking at hand, it turns over. In the moment before it turns over there is a very subtle feeling… like a tiny, meek little cluster of quiet thoughts trying to impose themselves, ‘Now! No…? Now? How about now? Please?’. But this is seen through easily and does not stick.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. There is a difficult to describe low-level feeling of a central agent or subtle ‘doer’ but this cannot be reconciled in AE.