Just Breathe

[JayCee]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Self is an illusion, a condition formed over years of repetition from birth through present. We form the idea of self from our parents, our family, teachers, government, society. Self is an idea perpetuated just about everywhere as it has it has become a part of how we identify and learn who we believe we are.

What are you looking for at LU?
I want to see behind the curtain - I've had glimpses of the no-self and the feeling of freedom (liberation) that comes with it however I want to look deeper. I am very good at "knowing" from an intellectual standpoint but I want to "Know" as an experiential truth - to "unbite the apple". I have always known that there is much more than what we see and hear and feel with our senses, even as a child. I want to release the expectations, fear, and uncertainty that keeps me grounded in the illusion of "self"

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect to be challenged, to gain understanding through inquiry, I expect to have my thoughts and beliefs questioned and examined both by the guider and myself, I expect to be guided down a path of discovery that leads to no-self

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I belong to Headspace and have been meditating for 5 months or so; the experience has been nothing short of amazing in the sense that I have never been able to sit still and quiet the monkey-mind, rather the monkey-mind ran wild nearly all the time - through meditation and mindfulness the monkey is now more still and peaceful than it every has been before in my life

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[JonathanR]

Hi JayCee,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Jon and I'd be very happy to assist you in your inquiry.

I read your introduction. Thank you.

I am very good at "knowing" from an intellectual standpoint but I want to "Know" as an experiential truth - to "unbite the apple".

Yes, understood. Good that you see this and wish for a more experiential insight.

I expect to be guided down a path of discovery that leads to no-self

All a guide can do is point. It can be like a path of discovery but it takes a willingness to investigate on your part.

I belong to Headspace and have been meditating for 5 months or so; the experience has been nothing short of amazing in the sense that I have never been able to sit still and quiet the monkey-mind

How fantastic! That's a very good experience to be able to report.

the monkey is now more still and peaceful than it every has been before in my life

Would it be cool to see that there is no self, regardless of how peaceful or noisy thoughts are?

This brings me to one or two disclaimers and links that id like you to take a look at:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function (as I did above). When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please let me know that you have read the links? If there is anything there that you disagree with please let me know? And we can get going!

Looking forward to working with you,

Warm regards,

Jon

[JayCee]

Please learn to use the quote function (as I did above). When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Well, that’s pretty straightforward, even on a mobile


I have read the disclaimers and info at the links. THanks

I look forward to working with you, Jon!

[JonathanR]

Hi Jaycee,

Well done with the quote function.

Ok. Great. Let's begin.

. I've had glimpses of the no-self and the feeling of freedom (liberation) that comes with it however I want to look deeper.

What would it take to achieve success in looking deeper ? It doesn't matter how great or small an idea of this you have, let me know as fully as possible what you're hoping to find?

. I want to release the expectations, fear, and uncertainty that keeps me grounded in the illusion of "self"

I understand. Can this releasing be achieved whilst its imagined that an 'I' is going to be doing the 'releasing'?


I want you to try something now. Is it possible to create a thought? Try creating a thought.

Try preventing a thought from appearing.

How did it go?

Regards

Jon

[JayCee]

Hey Jon:

You can call me James, just FYI... the screen name JayCee just represents my initials 🙃

What would it take to achieve success in looking deeper ?

Success would be going beyond the intellectual “understanding” to the experiential “knowing”. I’m a cerebral person (analytical is a good word, I suppose) and it’s easy to get in my own way (to use an expression)

After starting with meditation however I have experienced the calm that comes with a clear mind, something I honesty wasn’t sure was possible. I feel on the edge of this “knowing” (vs understanding)

I want you to try something now. Is it possible to create a thought? Try creating a thought.

Try preventing a thought from appearing

Nope, can’t be done...either the creation or the stopping. Thoughts “are”. This was a breakthrough for me a while back when it was “experienced” vs known. Thoughts come and go. The craziest to the most rational thoughts are, in the end, simply there for a while and then gone. I used to obsess over them but now I “know” that there’s no use because they’re 1) not real and 2)not permanent.

Talk soon!
James

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

. Success would be going beyond the intellectual “understanding” to the experiential “knowing”.

Ok. Good.

. After starting with meditation however I have experienced the calm that comes with a clear mind, something I honesty wasn’t sure was possible. I feel on the edge of this “knowing” (vs understanding)

That's a good place to be right now.

. Nope, can’t be done...either the creation or the stopping. Thoughts “are”. This was a breakthrough for me a while back when it was “experienced” vs known.

Good. Ok. Now, Thoughts cannot be prevented from appearing. Does this include the thought 'I'?


Jon

[JayCee]

Does this include the thought 'I'?

I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers and there was a part that addresses this and it started to resonate. This is also where the “getting in my own way” comes into play.

On the surface, this is a difficult question but yes, this would include the concept of “I” as a thought. Note I said concept.

The thought “I” had been crafted over years and is something I know to be impermanent. The “I” changes as experiences are had, knowledge is gained, etc. The “I” is how I refer to James in the real-world and is indeed a label. It is also something that is fighting to exist

I said about “how I refer to James” and that strikes me as interesting. Something tells me this needs to be explored. When that was typed there wasn’t much attention given to the statement which seems to include two separate individuals and it just flowed from consciousness. But still, it seems an odd statement that makes sense but at the same time doesn’t. Am I chasing a rabbit with that, do you think?

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

The thought “I” had been crafted over years and is something I know to be impermanent. The “I” changes as experiences are had, knowledge is gained, etc. The “I” is how I refer to James in the real-world and is indeed a label. It is also something that is fighting to exist

What is the 'it' that 'fights to exist'?

Where is it found existing?

Regards,

Jon

[JayCee]

What is the 'it' that 'fights to exist'?

Where is it found existing?

The "it" is the identity associated with "I" - the self-identification or identification of self....

My first inclination is to say that "I" exists in my totality and is a combination of body and mind - the experience-er of life and events...

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

. My first inclination is to say that "I" exists in my totality and is a combination of body and mind - the experience-er of life and events...

Where is this experiencer?

The words on this screen are being seen. But what is it that is doing the seeing?

Conventionally it is said that 'eyes' or 'the body' (which is 'me') are doing the seeing.

But examine this right now. What is happening in seeing? What is the actual experience? Is it an experience of 'eyes doing seeing'? Or is seeing simply happening?

If eyes are doing the seeing, then why does a self not have an experience akin to peering through portholes?


Jon

[JayCee]

Where is this experiencer

I know it’s not a little guy sitting in my head. The experience-er is really just a processor of all the information coming in. Where is the processor? It is the consciousness. Where is the consciousness? It is nowhere to be found in a physical form

The words on this screen are being seen. But what is it that is doing the seeing?

Conventionally it is said that 'eyes' or 'the body' (which is 'me') are doing the seeing.

Yes, the eyes was my first thought but it’s true, seeing is happening. There is nobody flipping the “see” switch

But examine this right now. What is happening in seeing? What is the actual experience? Is it an experience of 'eyes doing seeing'? Or is seeing simply happening?

I don’t really understand the “portal” statement. Are you saying that if seeing were an act of “doing” that it would be akin to looking through binoculars? That actually makes sense

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

The experience-er is really just a processor of all the information coming in.

I see what you have said about consciousness

How is what you have said here known for sure?

Where is the consciousness? It is nowhere to be found in a physical form

But you seem to be saying that something is inside and doing processing from there?

Yes, the eyes was my first thought but it’s true, seeing is happening. There is nobody flipping the “see” switch

Great.

I don’t really understand the “portal” statement. Are you saying that if seeing were an act of “doing” that it would be akin to looking through binoculars? That actually makes sense

Yes. Is there an experience of first being aware of the backs of your eyes, or of looking through binoculars? Where does vision happen? Its essential, here, to check the actual experience of seeing right here and now, not to find an answer from thinking about it.

Jon

[JayCee]

Hi Jon:

Good discussion! It's really helping me dig deeper...

But you seem to be saying that something is inside and doing processing from there?

Correct, that's what I was saying - although I do recognize the contradictory nature of the statement. There's all this thinking going on, all this processing of information and yet there's nothing to point to and say "aha! Found it!" It simply "is"

Yes. Is there an experience of first being aware of the backs of your eyes, or of looking through binoculars? Where does vision happen? Its essential, here, to check the actual experience of seeing right here and now, not to find an answer from thinking about it.

No, it's all automatic - it all is simply happening without anyone/anything making it happen. Seeing is happening because the physical pieces are in place that allow it to happen....completely on it's own. I don't choose to see, I am (blessedly) able to see.

How would this relate to something like walking, where "I" actually make the decision to get up and walk? Walking doesn't randomly happen - there is a decision to walk. Who makes that decision if not an "I"?

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

Good discussion! It's really helping me dig deeper...

I'm very pleased to hear that. Very cool.

Correct, that's what I was saying - although I do recognize the contradictory nature of the statement. There's all this thinking going on, all this processing of information and yet there's nothing to point to and say "aha! Found it!" It simply "is"

There seems to be processing, thoughts, memories and so on. But look to find out if there is actually an entity somewhere that is doing processing?

Where is the thinker of thoughts?

IS there a thinker of thoughts, given that thoughts cannot be prevented or created?

No, it's all automatic - it all is simply happening without anyone/anything making it happen. Seeing is happening because the physical pieces are in place that allow it to happen....completely on it's own. I don't choose to see, I am (blessedly) able to see.

Great. You might like to try this with hearing too? is there an experience 'someone, hearing' or 'ears hearing' , or is hearing happening completely on its own?

How would this relate to something like walking, where "I" actually make the decision to get up and walk? Walking doesn't randomly happen - there is a decision to walk. Who makes that decision if not an "I"?

Who or what claims the decision is it's own?

Does walking happen more or less perfectly when you're not noticing it going on anyway?

About choice, which is thought of as a type of decision. Place both your hands, plams down, on a table surface. In a moment one hand must be raised into the air whilst the other must remain on the table. It's important to notice the moment that a choice is made. See if it's possible to see the exact point of choice, as its made.

Jon

[JayCee]

Hello Jon:

There seems to be processing, thoughts, memories and so on. But look to find out if there is actually an entity somewhere that is doing processing?

The "entity" as far as I am able to determine is "consciousness" - so where is consciousness? It's a bit of a circle, isn't it? One can keep going round and round and never get anywhere. Like the chicken and the egg, the chicken came from and egg and the egg came from a chicken.

For our purposes, though, I can only conclude that consciousness just "is"

Where is the thinker of thoughts? IS there a thinker of thoughts, given that thoughts cannot be prevented or created?

I believe there is none - a thought comes from nowhere and returns to nowhere. In the time it comes out of it's nowhere-hidey-hole until the time it returns the mind determines what to do with it. Either dwell on it, ignore it (which isn't always helpful) or simply to acknowledge it and let it pass....like the cloud/blue sky metaphor

Great. You might like to try this with hearing too? is there an experience 'someone, hearing' or 'ears hearing' , or is hearing happening completely on its own?

This is the same - nobody is pushing the "hear" or "listen" button - hearing is simply happening whether I want it to or not. attention can be directed to "tune out" certain sounds, voices, etc but that then begs the question, who is doing the directing, or focusing? My initial thought is that it is, once again, consciousness.

About choice, which is thought of as a type of decision. Place both your hands, plams down, on a table surface. In a moment one hand must be raised into the air whilst the other must remain on the table. It's important to notice the moment that a choice is made. See if it's possible to see the exact point of choice, as its made.

This was a fun experiment - my experience is that it is an instantaneous event when it is not planned.

Here's what I mean:
The thought can be formed in my head consciously "I am going to raise my RIGHT hand" and then I raise it
or
A hand can randomly be raised at the instant, zero delay, the decision is made.

You can't fool yourself into thinking, ok I'm going to raise my right hand and then raise your left because there is already the awareness that you're going to do the opposite.

Does that make any sense at all?