Maitrinaga

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

There is AE of sensation “labelled” as boundary/ skin

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair

Not in the AE of sensation. Stories kick in quickly

Is there an inside or an outside?

No, only as arising words and mental images.

If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?

No
Only AE of sensations labelled as “inside the body”

If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

No
The sensations have no place. The thoughts simply overlay the sensation with a story of “outside”

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

The label “body” refers to sensations (and colour) and of thoughts, mental images and constructs.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

This is a tricky one!
Why so tricky?
The real experience of many changing and different sensations is in and of itself not” the body”
Opening the eyes and looking at the body made me think that there is no AE of body.
This became more apparent when washing dishes – there is no actual experience of the body - only layers of labels and stories

“O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive! “

Best MN

[forgetmenot]

Hi MN,

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair

Not in the AE of sensation. Stories kick in quickly

Yes, good to notice how the stories kick in quickly.

The sensations have no place. The thoughts simply overlay the sensation with a story of “outside”

Lovely, exactly!

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

The label “body” refers to sensations (and colour) and of thoughts, mental images and constructs.

The word/label actually refers to AE of thought. Thought points to colour and labels it ‘body’. Thought points to sensation and labels it ‘body’ and so on.
Can you see this?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

This is a tricky one!
Why so tricky?
The real experience of many changing and different sensations is in and of itself not” the body”
Opening the eyes and looking at the body made me think that there is no AE of body.
This became more apparent when washing dishes – there is no actual experience of the body - only layers of labels and stories

Lovely yes! The AE of the body is thought! Nice looking :)

“O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive! “

Indeed lol!

Okay, unless you have any questions with regards the body, let’s move on and look at the idea of time.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

No. “Now” is the time equivalent of AE sensory input. Looking happens now

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No. What is a moment? A momnet is a mental construct. I trained as a Physicist it is difficult not to switch paradigms.

Any actual experience of one event following another?

No. Only AE of thought

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

How can a thought a mental construct move?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No, other than when I first thought about it
How long does the ‘now’ last?
How long is a thought moment?
Indeterminable

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

Can’t tell! The question is illogical it is also not available to AE

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

Can’t tell! Now is not available to AE

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

AE of thought labelled “memories”

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

I cannot know time for sure, there are undeniably thoughts about time.
Changes cannot be known?

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

I cannot know time for sure, there are undeniably thoughts about time.
Changes cannot be known?

The AE of 'changes' is thought.
However, a seeming ‘thing’ can seemingly change. A nugget of gold can change into a ring with a little effort. The gold had a shape, lost it and is now a different shape. It has 'changed'. Now look at experience, does it have anything? Shape? Colour? Taste? Smell? So how could it change? How could it 'stay the same'? To say experience is changeless is a thorn to remove the idea experience changes. But to say experience is changeless fails to describe experience. Experience is appearing as the appearance of change.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?


WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay
I have given this one a bash!

What is memory exactly?

It is AE of visual thoughts or verbal thoughts which are labelled as memories

What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is any visual thoughts or verbal thoughts made of? They are known

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

There is no exact difference.
They are accompanied with labels of past and often have “I” thoughts of possession. My past.. My memory.

Both thoughts and mental images actually experienced only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about, like the future or past, are not ‘real’. They are just fantasies.

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

Whenever!

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It can never be known exactly that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened? Especially as you get older LOL

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Same as any thought. They are thoughts labelled as “wishing” “predicting” fantasizing”

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Like any thought it appears un invited

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

In terms of AE they are both thoughts. So the thoughts about the future are the content of the thought “there is a future”. They are simply thoughts/stories arising about a “future”? These thoughts are the content of the thought " there is a future ". The future is a story not accessible to AE

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It cannot be known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

The thought labelled “future” is AE of thinking not of thoughts about past
The thought labelled “past” is AE of thinking not of thoughts about past

If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

No

Best
MN
May I repeat this one tomorrow - I think I am not looking very clearly

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

May I repeat this one tomorrow - I think I am not looking very clearly

By all means! I will wait until you have looked again before I respond :)

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay
Plese explain the analogy

To say experience is changeless is a thorn to remove the idea experience changes

Thanks
MN

[Maitrinaga]

hI kaY
This is more like it, I think ha ha

What is memory exactly?

Memory is thought

What is the memory ‘made of’?

Memory is made of thinking referring to thoughts labelled as past.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

None, except in content

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

Now

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It is not actually known

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Same as any thought

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Now

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

None

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It is not actually known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

What is the meaning of the capitalisation of EXACTLY – it is either exact or inexact?
There is no difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

The difference cannot be actually known

Best MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

To say experience is changeless is a thorn to remove the idea experience changes

When you are walking in the forest and step on a thorn, you must use another thorn to dig the first thorn out. A thorn is used to dig up and dig out a concept, and then that thorn also has to be removed.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

What is the meaning of the capitalisation of EXACTLY – it is either exact or inexact?
There is no difference between the thoughts about past and future?

Exactly for that purpose of highlighting that if there is a difference then what EXACTLY is the difference. It is a pointer to LOOK carefully if you think there is a difference.

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

I will be away for the next 3-4 days, so you can take your time responding to the questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN, I am back and I look forward to your responses.

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

If iy was fun I hope you had fun and if work I still hope it was fun!
Been at it kay!
Will write very soon - giving a talk this eve and off to Edinburgh for the same tomorrow.
Rest asurred I am chewing the bone!
Best MN

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay
Been a busy day and I am surprised how often I founf myself lookng for anaswers to your question. Of corse that is AE of thought labeled "memory of the day" etc
Here is wah I wrote-

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Is there a separate entity: no , not even an inter-connected self
Anywhere: No not in space. Thinking situates it the body, the head, heart etc. However, this is not accessible to AE. Some somatic sensations are sometimes labelled as me or mine
Not in any way …. Other than an imagining, as a complex of concepts and thoughts that may or may not come to mind. These are simply AE of thought.
Not in any way, shape or form – shapes and forms occupy space!
More metaphorically: when memories and biographical narratives come to mind the “Me Mine I “ thoughts can arise. The mind is doing what it does labelling experience without trying. The topic of memory is difficult for me since so often the MN story adds a “me, mine, I” to the story. This thought has as content the concept of “continuity”. Things are fresher and lighter than that.
Was there ever – don’t know! How could that be known. I have never actually experienced it. The idea of “me, mine, I” disappears when you stop imagining it. The story has a long history and strong power.
The controller or driver issue at first thought appears to suggest a discrete identity – however when plans are examined the more “independent” they become of a personal controller. The intentions arise in the mind – spontaneously.
Only the seeing, hearing and sensing and thinking. Sometimes the thinking is about “me, mine, I”
Perhaps there is much less “reality” than I previously assumed – layers of delusions, assumptions , interpretations etc. This subjective experience rolls on without a subject.
Be well
MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

You don't have to break down each question into segments and answer them. Just answer each question as an overall answer. But please do supply examples where requested. When you are ready, I await your responses to the remaining 5 questions.

Love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN...what's happening? Are you having difficulties with the questions asked? They are questions which will help point to where further investigation is needed, if needed at all. What's coming up for you that you have not responded to all the questions?

K

[Maitrinaga]

Kay I have been trying to answere with authenticity based upon experience.
What is comming up was a mixtrue if resistance and dubfoundedness.
Last night I think was more satisfying.
I could keep rewritin .. however, as I mentioned at outset written communication is very challenging for me.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

Why do you use the qualifier “separate”?
I really don’t know this – experientially.
The illusion starts when "I" think about it
I think/speculate that self view it is a habit that is leaned

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days

It feels appropriate and I am satisfed that there is somthing in this process. However, no problems have been solved only a subtle change in perepective, I have a sense of flip flpopping between older ways of seeing/ beieving in I and the looking and being . The ocillation is smoother now.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Had a sleepless night last night – reflecting upon the ideas of isolation and the solitary nature of death. There was strong emotion, fear and struggle to do something about isolation. It was desperation that caused me to give up the struggle and to allow the thought to think and the feelings of fear and restlessness to become simply more experience. It was no option other than to see it all as thinking without axis.

When there is thinking about isolation when thoughts of me, mine, I are present as part of the mix then the “isolated MN” joins the show as if there was an “isolated MN”. It is all content lots of content and assumptions
However, why sometimes experience is seen to roll on and why sometimes I am take in by the content/story? It fluctuates

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

No, this is too advanced for me. Thinking does not happen at will as we mentioned earlier. I did not choose to think about “my isolation”, I had no control over seeing it as story or being swept along and being horrified.
I could not prevent the thoughts from appearing or stop the thoughts mid think
When I noticed the sensation of the other senses other than mind eg touch. The story was less compelling and the I felt more settled and open and was able to look at layers of view until it was all noticing thought, including the noticing

b) What makes things happen? How does it work?

Not sure at all in AE

c) What are you responsible for?

There is no one responsible.
I am not responsible
There are thoughts of “responsibility”
Life will roll on.

d) Give examples from experience.

I draw a blank here. I could tell you lots of thing I think I am responsible for making happen. However, I can find the one responsible for even typing
Conventionally, tonight I am responsible for making dinner. It will happen

6) Anything to add?

It appears you have thrown me in at the deep end – lots of processing and looking are taking place. Tantalizing and intriguing at time and scary at others – even more content / story
Defo work in progress. Big jump from the exercises to this.
Thanks Kay
MN