no next

[Steven257]

For now, look directly at the anger. Is there anything there? Or only thoughts arising?

Just sensations and label of "anger" with thoughts arising. Bodily sensations of contraction.


Seem to be at a point where I "know" the answers but the old patterns remain. However, will look at DE right now and see what happens:

Immediate sensation of "sadness". Listening to music. Hearing the sounds. New music so have no idea what will come next. Hearing...hearing...typing...butt on chair. Exploring that...no separation of butt and chair, just "pressure" or something that is not describable.

Looking. Arm on armrest. Exploring that. Backspaced to correct spelling error. Reading letters/words. Looking carefully at monitor. Just colors. Wife and dog just walked in. Spoke to them. No "I" when talking to them. Only when introspecting now, does there seem to be an "I". Exploring that now.

Where is the "I"? Word "soul" comes up as before. Searching for a "soul" which is basically another word for "I". Feeling bodily sensations. Looking for body. See what others refer to as "Steven". Seems real enough but exploring further. Sneezed. Exploring all of these labels like "sneezed" and "body" and "I" and "soul". Looking for them. Just labels. The content of these concepts/labels is not real but refers to AE. AE right now is hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, thinking, sensations.

Again, where is the "I"? Don't want to just say "not there". Know it is not there. Does not exist but still feels like "I am typing".

Re-read post to look for grammatical errors. Whoever wrote this seems to realize that there is no "I". Tears again. Why can't this person crash through the gate? What is preventing this? Feels so close and easy but the old schemas/patterns come up so quickly and seem to take over!

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

I'm not sure about that. Let me see what we can do about finding some tech support. In the meantime, have you have checked your junk mail, right?

I'm on my cell phone. Do you see any tech support Links at the top or bottom of the page?

Stacy

[Anastacia42]

On getting replies, when you look at the bottom of the page, find the wrench. If you hover, it says "Topic Tools." See if it says "Subscribe," which would indicate you were not subscribed. Or "Unsubscribe," which would indicate you are already subscribed.

Thanks! More shortly.

[Steven257]

Looks like I was no longer subscribed so subscribed again. Thanks for the help.

[Anastacia42]

Okay, mostly unpacked - and yes, so are you! :)

Clearly getting this and practicing each day is helping. Good work! Diligence is paying off.

Relax, don't try to force it. You know those pictures that can be seen in 2 very different ways, such as the candlesticks and the 2 people or the old woman/ young woman?

https://www.google.com/search?q=old+wom ... Poj9eNdtM:

Seeing no-self is much like the shift from old woman to young woman - it is simple, right in front of you, has always been there. Once you see it, you cannot un-see it, although there can be times when you can only find one of them.

So, there are a few places where it is not clear that Actual Experience was distinguished from the made-up stories. Let's look at "sadness" and "soul" and "Steven."

Immediate sensation of "sadness"

Is "sadness" Actual Experience? Can you point to this sensation of sadness? Or is there just sensation? Then the thought labels it, "sadness?" I know you know this one. Pay a little more attention to what you're actually sensing and then write saying only what you see, hear, feel, taste, smell or say a thought arises (leaving out the content and interpretation, as mentioned before - that is not where you will SEE.)

Word "soul" comes up as before. Searching for a "soul" which is basically another word for "I". Feeling bodily sensations. Looking for body. See what others refer to as "Steven". Seems real enough but exploring further. Sneezed. Exploring all of these labels like "sneezed" and "body" and "I" and "soul". Looking for them. Just labels. The content of these concepts/labels is not real but refers to AE. AE right now is hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, thinking, sensations.

Previously was written:

I am not sure that there is not a soul. Even if I am not aware of it, I am not aware of a lot of things, and they exist. For example, there are parts of the world that I have not visited, and they exist.

Look for a "soul." Looking now, can you find anything that is a "soul" that you can sense with your 5 senses? Anywhere? What is Actual Experience here? Is it simply thought arising? Or did you find a "soul" somewhere?

You wrote that

"Steven" feels real enough

What is the actual experience? Does "Steven" really "feel real?" Was surprising to read that as much as you have found no such thing before. Did you find it this time? What do you see, hear, feel, taste or touch that was some "real" "Steven?"

Whoever wrote this seems to realize that there is no "I". Tears again.

Yes! When feeling no "I" tears often show up. Tears can be confirmation and intuitive knowing.

Why can't this person crash through the gate?

There may be no "crash" at all. It may be subtle.

Report what is found with each of the 3 items above, "sadness," "soul," and "Steven." Do it slowly. Really look.

Good night!

[Steven257]

Good evening Stacy,

I hope that your transition to your new place is progressing well. Thanks for your post as always.

Look for a "soul." Looking now, can you find anything that is a "soul" that you can sense with your 5 senses? Anywhere? What is Actual Experience here? Is it simply thought arising? Or did you find a "soul" somewhere?

Did this a few times today and will do "sadness" and "Steven" tomorrow. Will continue to do all 3 this week.

When looking for "soul" feeling of pressure in body and noticed that "body" is just a thought. Just noticed a lack of separation when looking "out" at the computer. No "I"... just hearing music and seeing, but then shift back to "I" thought. Example of the shift when looking at the picture of the old/young woman is perfect. Usually I see the young woman ( like "I is real") and shift to old woman (No self is seen). Seeing old woman and "no self" requires relaxation and remains for a bit but when I go back later, the young woman and "I is real" appears first like the default setting.

...anyway, relaxing into the exercise again. Cannot find "soul" with 5 senses or anywhere. AE is thoughts including "I am doing this" which is simply a thought arising. Then, another thought which believes the original thought, but all just thoughts arising with no soul anywhere. Will just look and look for it and "Steven" and "sadness" all week and not focus on content of thoughts.

Last looking now while posting...thoughts arising, bundles of memories and projections into the future. Not real. Just thoughts. Hearing which is real. Seeing and touching which are real. Sensations of "body". Sensations are real. No "soul" anywhere, just thoughts about it and more thoughts about the thoughts.

Pay a little more attention to what you're actually sensing and then write saying only what you see, hear, feel, taste, smell or say a thought arises

Just re-read that and noticed that I am still interpreting. Will try not to do this when I post tomorrow morning.

Steven

[Steven257]

Is "sadness" Actual Experience? Can you point to this sensation of sadness? Or is there just sensation? Then the thought labels it, "sadness?" I know you know this one. Pay a little more attention to what you're actually sensing and then write saying only what you see, hear, feel, taste, smell or say a thought arises (leaving out the content and interpretation, as mentioned before - that is not where you will SEE.)

"sadness" is just vague sensation that is felt right now and not AE. Can point to sensation but takes place before the labeling of it.

Look for a "soul." Looking now, can you find anything that is a "soul" that you can sense with your 5 senses? Anywhere? What is Actual Experience here? Is it simply thought arising? Or did you find a "soul" somewhere?

Cannot find "soul" with my senses or anywhere. Cannot see it, hear it, taste it, or smell it. "feel it? That is the most challenging. Sensations in body and beliefs come up, but the beliefs are just thoughts. Still no soul. AE is mostly hearing, seeing and touching (keyboard) right now. Thoughts too. Nothing else.

What is the actual experience? Does "Steven" really "feel real?" Was surprising to read that as much as you have found no such thing before. Did you find it this time? What do you see, hear, feel, taste or touch that was some "real" "Steven?"

Thoughts of "Steven" arising. So thoughts arising, Bodily sensations, so sensations arising. Hearing, seeing and touching clearly not "Steven". Did exercise right now of feeling trunk, moving hands, feet, feeling face and pointing to "Steven". Not sure where to point and then thought arises stating that "whole body is Steven". "Steven in body". Looking for that "Steven in body". Thoughts arising that seem to be "my thoughts" as no one else is thinking them. That seems like "Steven".

Granted, there is no control over the thoughts but they seem to be exclusive to this body-mind which we label "Steven". Either this is strong belief or there is a paradox that cannot be resolved in which there is indeed something that is "Steven" which is different from other people and yet this is not separate. Confused by that. Namely, can see a body which is different from other bodies and thinking arises which is distinctive from thoughts in other body-minds. There really does seem to be a "Steven". Obvious sticking point here with some mild frustration.

Ok. Looking at "frustration". Had minor argument with wife too and feeling "frustrated" by that right now too. A bit "angry". When not thinking about this, just sensations arising, thoughts arising and the usual seeing, hearing and touching. Without the content of thoughts, this is the same as the other "stuff" at the beginning of the post. Always just seeing, hearing, etc with thoughts arising. Objects change and content of thoughts change but still AE right now is hearing the music, seeing monitor/room/whatever, touching, sensations, thoughts arising and fading. Never "soul", "Steven" or "sadness".

Will look again and again and not focus on content of thoughts and interpretations.

Steven

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

You're doing great, Steven. Keep looking. You're "getting it."

Example of the shift when looking at the picture of the old/young woman is perfect. Usually I see the young woman ( like "I is real") and shift to old woman (No self is seen). Seeing old woman and "no self" requires relaxation and remains for a bit but when I go back later, the young woman and "I is real" appears first like the default setting.

Yes, that's normal. This back & forth will go on for a long time. Everyone has this. It can take time for decades of conditioning and believing in a separate self to be shed. This does not happen overnight for about 99% of us. It is a habit to change - and it changes when it does. There is no specific amount of time that it takes for it to change. All that is needed here is to consistently LOOK, day in and day out, to see if you can find a separate self.

Sensations are real. No "soul" anywhere, just thoughts about it and more thoughts about the thoughts.

Great! Yes, there is no 'soul'. There are thoughts ABOUT a soul, however no soul can be found when looking. If thoughts arise about Santa Claus or pink elephants, does that make them real? No. You always check ALL thoughts with DE to see what they are pointing to is real or not.

Granted, there is no control over the thoughts but they seem to be exclusive to this body-mind which we label "Steven". Either this is strong belief or there is a paradox that cannot be resolved in which there is indeed something that is "Steven" which is different from other people and yet this is not separate. Confused by that. Namely, can see a body which is different from other bodies and thinking arises which is distinctive from thoughts in other body-minds. There really does seem to be a "Steven". Obvious sticking point here with some mild frustration.

So what? Truly, what does it matter if Thought continues to point to the body and call it “I/Steven/me”? So what if thought says that thoughts are specific to a "you.?" An illusion is an illusion no matter what thought says. There is no such thing as a "belief." A belief is just another thought which another thought labels as a belief! It is circular.

You are wanting the identification with an “I/self” to stop as proof that you have 100% clearly seen that there is no self....right?

But that idea/thought/expectation is just another thought bubble and is seen in utter clarity. Even the idea that something is identifying with thought about being a separate self who is thinker, doer, sayer and feeler (taster, smeller) is just an idea. There is NOTHING here that can identify with thought. Only thought says that something is identifying as/with anything and that there is something that is/can be separate and is the thinker, doer, sayer and feeler!

Thought doesn't (ever) stop telling you that it's your car, your job, your body, your craving, your preference, your pain, your happiness, your thoughts, your this and your that. Why would thought stop saying something just because it's seen what thoughts are? It's never been any other way. So it is only an expectation that thought will suddenly change its tune. This will never happen. What does happen is you look at it like it told you that there was a Tooth Fairy - no belief, no place for this thought to stick.

A thought is kind of like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall.

Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything *whatsoever.*

Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing in THIS. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought. They will continue to arise. You are learning to see they are not real, not pointing to anything found in Direct Experience.

Much love,

[Steven257]

Not much to report.

All that is needed here is to consistently LOOK, day in and day out, to see if you can find a separate self.

Still looking. Just watching now, thoughts arising, typing, listening to sounds, typing some more, thinking, looking, labeling, sensations, hearing jingling, labeling as "dog walking in room", sounds of tv...sounds then labeling, thoughts, images arising, thoughts, bodily sensations/just sensations and label of "body".

Will check in when more to report or less to report.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Do check in at least every other day. This is for you to keep the momentum going.

Much love,

[Steven257]

Hi Stacy-

Was staring at monitor for 10 minutes, not knowing what to write. Last thought was that I know that the tooth fairy is not real, but I can look at a "body" and it seems real enough. I know that there is a label "body" but there is an underlying reality, like "university". There are thoughts which are not truly "I" but the thoughts relate to something that seems local and real. Granted, these are all thoughts, but this has been a persistent sticking point for a few weeks. The idea that there is some locality to this awareness although no exact "I" can be localized in time or space. Very persistent belief that seems more like a scientific fact right now, and much different from Santa, Batman or the Tooth Fairy.

However, looking at DE now, thoughts arise, seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling, maybe tasting. No "I" can be found but this body is different from the 4 other people and dog who are who are in this house right now. This paradox is very, very confusing.

Will look for a self right now anyway. Seeing a "body" and also seeing speakers and Buddha and phone and monitor. Do I control the body more than I control the speakers? Just typing and seeing and hearing and thoughts arising but no controller actually seen right now. Yes, there is the label "body" and there is something real that the label refers to, just like speakers. They both are real but there is nothing inside of them that is controlling them. No Wizard of Oz controlling and when the curtain is pulled back, nobody/ no body is actually there to find.

Tomorrow, will look again for the "controller". If there is no controller, then there is no "I", "soul" or "self". Will look for an "observer" as well. Some people identify with a "witness" or observer which feels like an "I" but right now, there is just observing and witnessing and thinking about all of this stuff happening.

Hope you are settling into your new place.

With gratitude,

Steven

[Steven257]

hi-

Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing in THIS. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought. They will continue to arise. You are learning to see they are not real, not pointing to anything found in Direct Experience.

Not sure why, but am at a loss for what to write. So, will just write what comes up:

Some boredom, thoughts of work and fantasies, breathing and typing, swallowing, hearing breath and birds. sensation of air conditioning on feet, looking for "self", girgling sound from belly, hunger label and exploring that sensation before the label, pressure-sensation and label of slight discomfort which is "hunger", thoughts of dinner, salivation, swallowing, pain in forearm, moved it, switched positions and chair moved, corrected error, looking for "self" again, just sensations of body, exploring "body" label, waiting to see what is being typing, little chuckle, looking for "controller" and "witness", with witness just seeming to be thoughts commenting. Will look further.

Steven

[Anastacia42]

Still looking. Just watching now, thoughts arising, typing, listening to sounds, typing some more, thinking, looking, labeling, sensations, hearing jingling, labeling as "dog walking in room", sounds of tv...sounds then labeling, thoughts, images arising, thoughts, bodily sensations/just sensations and label of "body"

Yes! This is LOOKING. This is noticing thoughts are merely arising, not real. This is just pure awareness of happening now.

"Granted, these are all thoughts, but this has been a persistent sticking point for a few weeks."

Yes, thoughts arising.

"looking at DE now, thoughts arise, seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling, maybe tasting. No "I" can be found but this body is different from the 4 other people and dog who are who are in this house right now. This paradox is very, very confusing."

How do you know "this body" even exists, much less as "different" from some "4 other people and dog?" Did you actually see these "4 other people and dog?" Or was thought just arising about them? This is much like the famous Zen koan about a tree falling in the woods - without you to see them, are these people & dog anywhere to be found in Direct Experience?

It is a kind of paradox. We are LOOKING and SEEING what is Direct Experience. Focus on that.

..."right now, there is just observing and witnessing and thinking about all of this stuff happening."

Yes, there is awareness. Is this "awareness" some kind of "I" or "me?"

In "witnessing, observing, thinking about..." is there any "I" or "me" *doing* anything? Or is it all simply arising?

Let the paradox be. Relax with it, rather than struggle with it.

Here's another exercise to try:

Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.

Now 'go to' the sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – AE of sensation.

2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

Can a ‘feeler’ ever be found in 'what is being felt' – AE of sensation?

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be other than a concept/idea/thought?

What is found?

Yes unpacked faster than expected. 5 days. Still need to put decorations on walls but otherwise, yes, pretty much moved in. Thank you for asking.

Love,

[Steven257]

Good evening Stacy-

Read most of the "Elizabeth" section of "The Gateless Gate". For much of the chapter, that could have been written by "me". Have not finished the chapter yet. Liked the watermelon reference. Also, realized that I am trying to figure this out. That will never happen, because there is no "I" to figure it out.

Trying to find a mental construct to breakdown, but there are only thoughts. Starting to seem more clearly that beliefs are not special, just thoughts as well.

Remembering the time when everything just dropped away years ago during a deep depression, and there was just love. Lost the sense of self; so really, not afraid to lose anything now, even if there was something to lose, which is yet to be found and won't be found.

Looking for that which thinks is acting to look for the self. Nothing found, just thoughts, sensations and perceptions. Realization that I am still taking the content of thoughts way too seriously. Re-read your recent post about "graffiti". Will continue to remember that thought "knows nothing whatsoever about reality".

Thanks again for your time and patience.

With love,

Steven

[Anastacia42]

Hi Steven,

Thank you for checking in.

Glad to hear that the reading is helping. Yes, my sense is that you saw no self at that time. It happens spontaneously in many circumstances.

I did give you some very specific questions and I gave you a specific exercise to try. Did you see those?

Good night!