Falling into

[Matthew]

Upon thinking about trying to explain what I mean.

When I ask you, what colour the socks have, that you are wearing, you have two options.
You can either think about it, recall the memory which socks you have put on in the morning.
Or you can do a quick look down and see the colour.

The latter is what we are interested here.
Do no think about things. LOOK at experience, as it presents itself in the present moment.
And then report only from that:

Thought story dominates awareness

Is there a dominated awareness?
Or is there an awareness of "being dominated"?

thoughts stories seem louder, more real

What is the direct experience of "louder" and "more real"?

How is it known that a thought is "more real"?

Have a direct look at it!

[Cloudberry]

OK, thanks. Ill report from that.

Is there a dominated awareness?
Or is there an awareness of "being dominated"?

Thoughts about dominated awareness. That's it.

What is the direct experience of "louder" and "more real"?

How is it known that a thought is "more real"?

It seems to be a thought about me. Not a thought about the weather or how to change a tyre on a bicycle but a thought about ...me. This me in here facing the world out there. That makes it seem more real and louder.

Something interesting as I sit here looking. Could it be that "I" only exists because " I" think I do? Or "I" only exists because it thinks it does?

[Matthew]

Does this "I" or "me" exist at all?

If so, where exactly?
How exactly?

Can it be found in present experience?

[Cloudberry]

Very interesting

Logically it's understood that "I" is just a thought. It's now starting to be seen as such although more from a process of elimination.

Not easy to put into words but I'll try.

It seems the "me" "I" sense or essence accompanies thoughts, it kind of tangled up in the thought stream. But it's kind of invisible like a shadow and hard to pinpoint and see 100% if that makes sense.

It appears when things are being done and as things are happening this "me-ness" kind of is present but not anywhere specific. Ephemeral like a gas or a cloud, not solid. Like a thought I guess. This seems to be going in the right direction and am getting a proper sense of this looking at it. Right Now, Right here

Not sure if you have any pointers to assist other than the below which I can keep working with and are golden:

Does this "I" or "me" exist at all?
If so, where exactly?
How exactly?
Can it be found in present experience?

[Matthew]

It seems the "me" "I" sense or essence accompanies thoughts

Like a thought I guess.

What is the "sense of me" really.
What does the "sense of me" really consist of.


To explore this, please have a look at the entire spectrum of actual experience.
As it presents itself right here right now.

Can it be described with the terms

The seen, the heard, the smelled, the tasted, the (bodily) sensed and (observed) thought?

Is there anything more, or anything beyond those terms in direct experience?

If so, please describe exactly, what it is and how it is experienced.

Wouldn't anything "more" or anything "beyond" those terms in any case be a thought about such a thing?

[Cloudberry]

What is the "sense of me" really.
What does the "sense of me" really consist of.

Can it be described with the terms

The seen, the heard, the smelled, the tasted, the (bodily) sensed and (observed) thought?

The seen - NO
The heard - NO
The smelled - NO
The tasted - NO
The (bodily) sensed - NO

(observed) thought? - YES

It has been a see that there is an innocuous little label, thought that is constantly being applied to experience, especially with regards doing. It is decided to make some food, the thought arises from nowhere "make some food" and immediately this little "me" thought attaches to it and takes an assumed ownership of the thought and it appears as if an "I" thought it. This keeps itself alive. It is decided to do a chore and a thought arises "do the job that needs doing in the garden" the "me" label follows immediately afterwards and ownership is applied. Objects are seen and "me" takes assumed ownership of them. My hands, my book, my car, my job, my life, my pencil, my paper, my watch you name it. Even my journey with Liberation Unleashed. An imagined sense of ownership. The misunderstanding the there is a "me" that is real. There's a body and thoughts and all that stuff but as noticed previously, it's all simply happening. This thought wraps itself around everything as "me" and "mine".
Seeing this is so simple, so obvious. so ordinary. Yet in the seeing of this the possibilities of living a different way open up.

Does this seem to be on the right track?

Thanks for your continued patience, support, awesome skills

Be well

Rob

[Matthew]

Oh wow, yes! Very very good observations!
Which makes "me" a happy guide ;-)

Does this seem to be on the right track?

Doesn't get better than that!

An imagined sense of ownership

How does it feel to see this?

Please report a little from daily life.
What changes?
What stays the same?

Looking very much forward to the report!

[Cloudberry]

Wonderful !!

This will be explored throughout the next few days and I'll come back with an update.

How does it feel to see this?

There is a mixture. Real happiness to have seen this. A lightness to experience that I'll report on in more detail. Coupled with an earnestness to get this right and to keep seeing this. There had to be real looking to see this as it was so subtle and familiar that it was very hard to see it. It feels a bit like a skill that needs learning and practicing but it also feels like that skill is increasing. More and more layers of "I" "me" are being seen, it's like "this too!!!" is just a thought.

I'll take it for a drive for a couple of days and come back with an update

There is also happiness that this seeing brings happiness to you too. You've worked so hard to guide me and have been so patient. It's great you seeing some results.

Thanks

[Matthew]

Enjoy watching things fall into place by themselves!

Do not worry too much about "getting it right".
It will be all right!

Looking forward to your next reply!

[Cloudberry]

Hey

So. It's been interesting.
Most recently it's been a really tough couple of days with a black mood. As best as possible holding that gently but awareness of thoughts about this shouldn't be like this etc. Trying to re-create the seeing that was had previously where the "me" thought was clearly seen. Thoughts of being unable to see it and being identified with the story. Thoughts about a me on a journey with Liberation Unleashed. Thoughts about there still being an identification with a "me" even though it was thought to have been seen through.

Sat in bed last night journaling which was useful. Also re-reading through our dialogue.

Today. STOP. Put everything down. What is here.

When I do that now. Birds chirping, gently ringing in ears. Sensation of fulness after lunch. A rich, thick and creamy spaciousness. Strong pleasant feelings of simply being alive right now. Thoughts arising and hands moving of their own accord typing in response to the thoughts.

It seem relaxing, loosening, patiently letting things unfold seems to be helpful

A thought about not getting this quickly enough and causing you trouble.

[Matthew]

Thought tells the funniest stories, doesn't it!

Isn't also "black mood" just an appearance within this spaciousness?

Is there ever "no spaciousness"?

[Cloudberry]

Thought tells the funniest stories, doesn't it!

Dangerous things if left unguarded. I mean they can cook up a story in a few joined thoughts that seems so real.

Isn't also "black mood" just an appearance within this spaciousness?

It must be, yes. This spaciousness is the space that contains thoughts so any object that arises be it seen, heard, smelled, tasted, felt, thought, black mood must be arising within this spaciousness.

Is there ever "no spaciousness"?

Logically there can't be. experientially it can feel contracted and looping in thought after thought and being unaware of the spaciousness that is always there. This was the experience yesterday when looking to find spaciousness but not being able to find it, realising today though that was probably thought or a story about not being able to find spaciousness.

[Matthew]

experientially it can feel contracted

Have a look!

Is there contracted experience?
Or is there experience of contraction?


In other words:

Is there contracted awareness?
Or is there an awareness of contraction?


In other words:

Is there contracted knowing?
Or is there knowing of contraction?


Pick the wording which resonates most!

[Cloudberry]

Hi Matthew

Hoping you are well

Is there contracted experience?
Or is there experience of contraction?

Very interesting. Yes there is a difference.

Is there contracted awareness?
Or is there an awareness of contraction?

Is there contracted knowing?
Or is there knowing of contraction?

So we are not denying a contraction occurs, it's just that it's just part of the flowing changing-ness and just a contraction occurring that is known in awareness. On one hand there can be experiences as previously described where separation falls away and there is a blissful equanimous experience of connection and oneness, a kind of altered state. On the other extreme there are times where mood is low and there is awareness of strong thought stories about a one who is unhappy at work or blah blah. Just experience.
There can be a story about that's how it should be all the time and what is being aimed for when it's there are few thoughts, spacious and pleasant it's good and correct and when here are lots of thoughts, contracted-ness and unpleasant it's not good and wrong

They are all just experiences happening in awareness. There is awareness present in both and every scenario. there is always this awareness or knowing of experiences. This never changes, this awareness is the juice or electricity that was turned on at birth and has always been there before all this stuff was loaded in to create this illusory separate self who everything happens to. There is just nowness and knowing of nowness as it changes. The knowingness of experience.

Contraction occuring in awareness, contraction is known,
Spaciousness occurring in awareness, spaciousness is known,


No "I" in any of that. "I" comes with "thinking about". "I" , "ME" is what seems to take ownership of these experiences. There is no enduring "I" that can remain in here, unchanging that all this is happening to. There is patterns of thinking and label application that uses memory and data from current experience to build this illusion of a one who this is happening to.

Ajahn Sumedho "Right now, it's like this"


If there is an "I" then it is awareness itself, or knowingness. Sitting here now, early morning, looking into this awareness, knowing. It is endless, everything. The space in which experience arises and passes.
Contracted or spacious, pleasant or unpleasant. Just labels applied. Pre labelling there is just awareness.

Sitting here tuning into this base layer of awareness, objectivity being applied to things seen and heard, thoughts arising painting a story about future or memories arising about past, collectively merging together to create a thought generated habit of ownership that lives within this body seemingly at the center of it all. This is just another thought object, habit that is perpetually kept alive. It was just seen a thought arose about moving to another chair and this turns into "I'll go and sit over there". This imagined ownership again. Sensations of a runny nose or tickle in the back of the throat followed by the thought "I'm getting a cold" and the story that can be spun up about it. Just a thought generated story arising and passing in awareness.

A bit of a ramble this morning that all just fell out through the fingertips

Thanks

Rob

[Matthew]

Beautiful!

there is a blissful equanimous experience of connection and oneness, a kind of altered state

It is a common pitfall to mistake this "altered blissful state" as absolute reality.
Recognising that both, spaciousness and contraction, are equally a meaningless appearance within this, is the key.
You saw that accurately!

If there is an "I" then it is awareness itself, or knowingness.

Some say that. Some give it other names.
But at this point, giving ThisWhatIsHereNow (awareness, knowingness) any name seems to be superfluous, doesn't it.

A bit of a ramble this morning that all just fell out through the fingertips

What do you mean by that?