I'm Ready.

[Renvid]

I'm ready for liberation. I've been searching for truth the last 3 years and I came to this website from another website. I've been meditating for the past 2 years. I'm ready to finally find truth.

Kenny

[Trevor]

Hi Kenny,

If you're ready then I'd be delighted to guide you. I'm in the UK, where are you?

The way it works is I ask questions and you reply only when you're 100% ready, answering with absolute honesty in as much detail as possible. We'll try to communicate at least once a day. I'd also request you suspend reading other material on this topic, whether on websites or books, just for the duration of our conversation, so that you can better focus on the pointers I'll be giving.

If those terms and conditions are fine with you then let's begin. Can you tell me what your expectations of liberation are?

Best,

Trevor

[Renvid]

Hey Trevor. I live in the US, on the eastern coast. I'll answer everything with complete honesty. Also thanks for the heads up I'll definitely look up material related to this topic.

My expectations of liberation are, well simply said, to understand existence and be free from searching. I'm not really sure what else to expect actually. I'm a bit excited, but if anything if this is liberation then I expect something great to come out of this.

[Trevor]

Hey Trevor. I live in the US, on the eastern coast. I'll answer everything with complete honesty. Also thanks for the heads up I'll definitely look up material related to this topic.

My expectations of liberation are, well simply said, to understand existence and be free from searching. I'm not really sure what else to expect actually. I'm a bit excited, but if anything if this is liberation then I expect something great to come out of this.

Thanks for your prompt reply Kenny.

One thing, I think you might have misread something in my earlier post - what I meant was that you I'd rather you do not look up material related to this topic either in books or websites whilst we're doing this. The reason I ask you not to is that 'liberation' is a very broad term that points to many things but here on Unleashed we use it to point to one precise simple thing only and so if you're reading lots of other stuff about it at the same time it can be confusing.

Thanks for sharing your expectations with me. I'd ask you to set them aside for the duration of our one-to-one - nothing wrong with them and you can revisit them afterwards if you need to.

So can you tell me what comes up for you, physically, emotionally, mentally when I say that you don't exist, there is in reality no 'you' anywhere, no such thing as Kenny, there never was and there never will be.

Take as long as you need and only answer when you're sure you've got a clear feel for it. You don't exist Kenny. What comes up for you when you here that?

[Renvid]

Me? I don't exist? Well the first thing that occurred was a perplexing feeling. How could I not exist? I'm having a conversation with you. It makes me a bit tense.

After that, I just decided to pretend that statement was true. It's a fearful thing to think about. If I don't exist...then what is all of this? If i don't exist then how can I see this world and feel sensations? Who, or what, then, is experiencing this life? It's very confusing to think about. How do I not exist if I have a body and mind?

It makes me confused...and honestly it's frightening to imagine.

[Trevor]

Me? I don't exist? Well the first thing that occurred was a perplexing feeling. How could I not exist? I'm having a conversation with you. It makes me a bit tense.

After that, I just decided to pretend that statement was true. It's a fearful thing to think about. If I don't exist...then what is all of this? If i don't exist then how can I see this world and feel sensations? Who, or what, then, is experiencing this life? It's very confusing to think about. How do I not exist if I have a body and mind?

It makes me confused...and honestly it's frightening to imagine.

Yes Kenny, fear and confusion come up because we've been brought up to believe that an I or a me is necessary to run our life. What we're going to do is to thoroughly explore if this belief in a personal I is either true or necessary. So let's now have a deeper look now at what's behind the fear and confusion.

I want you to look closer at the fear. The fear is just trying to it's just job - fear is a mechanism of protection so have a look and see, what is this fear trying to protect? What is behind it? Sit with this and let me know what comes up.

You also wrote "how do I not exist if I have a body and a mind?'

I also want you to look and see if you can find anywhere in your experience an 'I' that has a body and a mind. Maybe there is just a mind and a body doing everything perfectly without any 'me' or 'I' involved at all.

We'll start first with the body, one sense at a time.
First start with hearing. Close your eyes and listen to whatever there is to be heard where you are. Now 'look' and listen closely Kenny, is hearing just happening on its own? Or is there a separate thing, an 'I' who is doing the hearing?
Vision. Look at the room where you are - Is seeing the room happening all by itself or is there an 'I' on one end doing the seeing and the seen on the other end, being seen? Do this with touch, taste and smell. And tell me what you notice.

[Renvid]

Behind fear is....nothing. I can't find anything behind fear. From a logical standpoint, fear is trying to protect ME. But from what, I'm not so sure.

I tested all of the sensations. There is no I doing any of them, it's all automatic. There isn't an I required to do any of those actions, because the body reacts to them. However....what about thought? And choices? Decisions? Isn't there an I required to do those things. Without an "I" who would make choices and think. Those processes aren't automatic not reactions.

[Renvid]

Also is it a problem if I read other threads on this forum?

[Trevor]

Yes Kenny, there is nothing behind the fear! And if fear is trying to protect ME... ? Maybe ME is just an empty label that refers to nothing?

Good, so you've seen that everything we see and hear, touch, taste and smell happens automatically - there's no 'I' to be found doing it.

Let's look at thought now.

Where do thoughts come from?

Do you know what you're going to think about next? Do you choose your thoughts?

What is a choice or a decision? Is a 'me' needed in order to make the choice or decision?

I don't want you to think about these questions Kenny. I want you to look and observe what happens throughout your day. Look at your thoughts and try to find if there is any ME or I they belong to or that is doing the thinking.

Let me know when you're ready what came up for you.

[Trevor]

Also is it a problem if I read other threads on this forum?

I wouldn't read anything else on this topic until after we're done Kenny. Same reasons as before - focus on what I am pointing at, don't be distracted by what you think you should or shouldn't be saying. You need to be 100% honest about your own experience and reading about other people may distract this process.

[Renvid]

You say Me is a label and that is true...but it's a label because it refers to something (that is, me).

Thoughts come from the brain. No I don't know what I'm going to think next, but I do know that I can choose what i think...but also I just just realized that if I observe thoughts, they too come automatically. Maybe I can choose and automatically think? Kind of like breathing where I automatically breathe but i can choose to stop.

A choice is something that is decided between many options. I believe there is a me required to make a decision. I choose to like bananas more than apples.

I kind of see what you're trying to say, that mostly everything is automatic and there is know me required. But i still feel like there is some kind of "me" existing that can control some aspects of my body and mind.

[Renvid]

Also I observed everything that happened throughout the day. I found that there doesn't have to be a me to do any of this, however, I still feel that there is a "me" that can, if need be, make choices. But that is only if I actively am aware of making those choices, otherwise a "me" isn't there.

Or maybe observation and looking is all automatic too and a "me" isn't required to do that. All I know is that there is something that is aware...and it's confusing to process it.

[Trevor]

There's some interesting points you've raised here so let's look at them one by one.

You say Me is a label and that is true...but it's a label because it refers to something (that is, me).

This is key! Does it really refer to something? If it does wouldn't you be able to clearly say what it is or point to it? I want to you to look, feel, listen, do whatever it takes, to find out what the label 'me' refers to, exactly. There's probably a chair in the room where you are now or a table, the word chair is a label that refers to a definite clearly identifiable object just like the word table does. Now, does the word Me refer, in a similar way, to anything definite? Or is it rather like the word 'university' that refers to a whole bunch of things like students, teachers, classrooms, libraries, sports teams, but to nothing essentially?

Thoughts come from the brain. No I don't know what I'm going to think next, but I do know that I can choose what i think...but also I just just realized that if I observe thoughts, they too come automatically. Maybe I can choose and automatically think? Kind of like breathing where I automatically breathe but i can choose to stop.

A choice is something that is decided between many options. I believe there is a me required to make a decision. I choose to like bananas more than apples.

"Thoughts come from the brain"

is something you've been taught, you're just parroting a scientific fact you've not seen seen or experienced for yourself. This kind of thing is useless for our purposes. I'm only interested in your immediate experience. What you believe or what you've been taught won't help you here. Your own serious commitment to fearlessly looking at the truth of your experience is the key. I will do my best to point to it but only you can doing the honest looking.

"I do know that I can choose what i think"

Is it true that you can choose what you think? If it is why would you ever choose to have unpleasant, fearful, anxious, sad thoughts? Choosing obviously does happen. A choice was made to come on this forum for example. But if there is any thing like an separate me that DOES the choosing, surely it would be obvious what it is and where it is?

"I choose to like bananas more than apples"

this seems to me obviously absurd. You might say you choose to EAT bananas more than apples but I've never heard of any creature that can choose to like the taste of something! Although I wish I had this talent. If I could choose to like dogfood and cardboard I I'd save fortune on my grocery bill. Think of an unpleasant tasting substance. Can you simply choose to like the taste of it? No. But this is beside the point. What IS this 'I' that chooses? What does 'I' refer to here?

I kind of see what you're trying to say, that mostly everything is automatic and there is know me required. But i still feel like there is some kind of "me" existing that can control some aspects of my body and mind.

Right focus on this feeling then Kenny. Where is this 'some kind of me' that can control some aspects of your mind and body? Can you feel it anywhere in particular? If it really exists you should be able to locate it.

[Trevor]

Also I observed everything that happened throughout the day. I found that there doesn't have to be a me to do any of this, however, I still feel that there is a "me" that can, if need be, make choices. But that is only if I actively am aware of making those choices, otherwise a "me" isn't there.

Or maybe observation and looking is all automatic too and a "me" isn't required to do that. All I know is that there is something that is aware...and it's confusing to process it.

Good work here, Kenny. I can see that you're really engaging with this and having a good look. Well done. You've already moved on from your previous post. Keep it up! Keep looking.

Yes, there is something that is aware! But is it personal? Can it be located anywhere?

[Trevor]

Also I observed everything that happened throughout the day. I found that there doesn't have to be a me to do any of this, however, I still feel that there is a "me" that can, if need be, make choices. But that is only if I actively am aware of making those choices, otherwise a "me" isn't there.

Or maybe observation and looking is all automatic too and a "me" isn't required to do that. All I know is that there is something that is aware...and it's confusing to process it.

Good work here, Kenny. I can see that you're really engaging with this and having a good look. Well done. You've already moved on from your previous post. Keep it up! Keep looking.

Yes, there is something that is aware! But is it personal? Can it be located anywhere?

In fact is there someTHING that is aware? Or is this just a misleading trick of language? Is there really only awareness and no thing that is doing any of it?

Let me know what you notice Kenny.