Maitrinaga

[Maitrinaga]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
The self is a thought. The thinker is a thought. Arising and passing away in the mind.
It is an imputation, it appears in the mind and there after further "thinking" make this appear more solid and and worthy of defense, protection and nurishment.

What are you looking for at LU?
The question whether there is or is not a self is futile, it is the investigation of how the "I" idea works out in experience and who performs the investigation. The ideas of point of view is intresting becacuse it assumes a point from which we view and respond to experience. I would like to explore this more fully.
I would like to investigate why at times experience is tight and constricted at other times open and clear. Why is this?
I also would like to expolre how emotions arise and their role in living a skillful life.
I would also like to have my beliefs challanged in robust communication.
The idea of there being no driver or controler of experirnce is at times accessable but at other times, I am appauled by the ideas of free flow of ideas, sensations choises and consiousness. All of thes dependant upon the other. .

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Guidance and constant pointing out of other ways of looking.
I find thinking an coversation to be more productive since false assuptions can be pointed out and used as reflections and furter objects of enquiry.
It is my experience that it is during comunication that I can change my views and this change of view leads to some form of transormation.
eg In meditation guidance, in cloective study and in one to one dialouges.
I expect to give this process a considerable amout of my resources in terms of time and energy.
I was wonderinh if "conversations" had to be text based. I am not comfortable expressing and recieving written text. Skype etc?

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I was reared in a loving family - atheist and altruistic (Marxist GB)
At school, started with yoga and Hindusim and LSD
At 28 I came into contact with the Forest Sangha and attended many retreats and spent my summers at the monastery.
Life rolled on and while working in Nairobi I came into contact with the Kagyu, lived at the center there although never really understood the practices. I became chair and was instructed by the lamas to introduce basic samatha meditation to the sangha. I was far to busy with organisational matters and keeping good relations with the local government.
Came in to contact with Triatna while in Nairobi when a Triratna practitioner came to practice with us and when another triratna order member visited with a load of books.
On return to Scotland had no desire to take on any organizational role and started to practice in the context of Triratna and specifically under the guidance of Passada an elderly man devoted to the study and practice of the Prajnaparamita sutras.
Since then I have attended loads of retreats.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 8

[forgetmenot]

Hi

My name is Kay and I am happy to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self. My role is to point by using exercises and questions, but it is up to you to do the looking, as you have to see what is being pointed at for yourself; that is why we are described as guides and not teachers. This is not about discovering what you are; it is about challenging concepts and beliefs so as to see and realise what you thought you are, is not as it is thought to be.

You asked if this exploration could be done with something other than text. This is the best format, especially in the beginning. It is the exercises, pointed questions. and the looking at what is being pointed at, that bring the realisation and not the dialogue itself.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Just let me know that you have read the disclaimer and the other above links and we can then get started!

With love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay
Please accept my apologies for slow response to your message. We experienced a family berievement
I am now able to start
I have read the disclaimer and studies the instructions on how to copy / paste and quote text.
So now what..
Be well MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

Please accept my apologies for slow response to your message. We experienced a family berievement
I am now able to start

Sorry to hear about your loss.

I have read the disclaimer and studies the instructions on how to copy / paste and quote text.
So now what..

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and using the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

With love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hi Kay
Hope ypi are ok

Not reallly sure what "actual experience" is?

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

How will life change -
I am uncertain how life will change - all the ususal stuff wiill continue.
How will you change -
I expect whenh the illusion of a separate self is seen though by seeing there is no one to see through. Thsi change in perception will liberate energy which previosly was spent in guardinf and supporting the thought of a Seperate self.

Things come to a stadnstill when paradox is contemplated by a "thinker" - but not when the seen directly I suppose. Somtimes there is a felt sense of I ness in experience and other times the experience is alive and responsive without a need to label the thought of self. I would like to know why this happens.

As I sit here and type there is a strong ideas of personal identity that feels tight and closed - perhaps this could change.

What will be different?
The flow of momet by moment experience will continue free of constant self referance as if there is a contoler - ?? Who knows?
What is missing?
I suspect there is nothing missing - in so far as it is meely imputed onto experience and has no thingness -/
I a, intrequed why the words no seperate self is used -as if there is a non-seprate self. unsepareatye, undivided self.
Ohhops perhaps too heady
Look forward by for now
Oh yes is there a spell checker in this interface?

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

I would like you to use the quote function around the individual questions you are answering, just as I have done below. It keeps the thread legible.

The questions asked were about becoming aware of expectations as expecations can be a hindrance to this exploration. Other expectations may also appear. There is nothing to be done with expectations, other than to be aware of them. We will be looking at becoming aware of actual experience next.

Not reallly sure what "actual experience" is?

Actual Experience (AE) refers to your current experience ‘right now,’ without the labels and thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple noticing of thought at face value. When looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

We will be looking at AE next.

How will life change -

I am uncertain how life will change - all the ususal stuff wiill continue.

It is good to be uncertain - to be open and curious. Life is constantly changing, and always has.

How will you change -

Things come to a stadnstill when paradox is contemplated by a "thinker" - but not when the seen directly I suppose. Somtimes there is a felt sense of I ness in experience and other times the experience is alive and responsive without a need to label the thought of self. I would like to know why this happens.

There is no ‘thinker’ of thought! There is no ‘you’ controlling what thoughts appear and when. There is no thinker, feeler, sayer or doer!

As I sit here and type there is a strong ideas of personal identity that feels tight and closed - perhaps this could change.

“Tight” is a label that is trying to describe the actual experience of sensation. Sensations come and go, it is only thought that points to sensation and labels them and further says they are different. In order for it to be true that you shouldn't be feeling this, there would need to be a you!

What will be different?

The flow of momet by moment experience will continue free of constant self referance as if there is a contoler - ?? Who knows?

There has never been an “I” living life and yet “self referencing” has still appeared, so why would that change? Just because a thought appears that references an “I” doesn’t mean that it is referencing something real. The difference will be that you will be able to see through the self referencing. However, even after having the realisation, seemingly being caught up in self referencing will happen for a time. The key is to continue to look, even after gating.

Oh yes is there a spell checker in this interface?

There is no spell checker. As I wrote in my introduction, it is best to respond to answers in another program such as Word. Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste the post into Word, answer the questions there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run! By so doing, you can also use Words spell checker.

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

I would like you to use the quote function around the individual questions you are answering, just as I have done below. It keeps the thread legible.

Thanks kay - i will get used to the interface and will compose in word and keep a copy.

Thanks for your responses.
Be well
MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

Okay, so let's become aware of actual experience (AE) and how to look.

Actual Experience (AE) is used to refer to experience that is appearing/happening ‘right now,’ minus the thought stories. ‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual experience (AE) in this moment. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.
Thought layers concepts over actual experience. A thought (concept, idea, label) is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual, and some point to other thoughts, but the content of every single thought is just a story.

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Just a reminder that throughout our exploration, what is highlighted in blue text is what I would like you to answer please. Don't forget to use the quote function.

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Hello Kay

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Well “apple” is a convenient label for the apple in front of me right now. As it rots or is bitten it still would be recognised as “apple” however in the “appleness” depends upon the perception and recognition of it not upon it being real.
Labels are assigned to objects of the basis of previous learning and the raw sensory data?
What is actually experienced when I look, smell and hold the apple:-
Holding the sensation gives rise to thoughts labeled; “weight”, “volume” and “shape” “temperature” on the top are known. giving rise to the labels “dense“, ”small apple” “dimple on top” and then that thought is sensed and further thinking speculation to variety, freshness etc The touch sensation “temperature “labeled as “cool” was known
But is there is something else before all that. recognition, association and thinking kicks in?
Thoughts of liking made me fancy eating the apple
Looking at the apples the shape gives rise to recognition and then identification as apple. Then a stream of thinking – I bought the apple yesterday in Liddel , wonder it it is nice blah blah
Smelling the apple, nothing much was noticed and thoughts about disappointment arose. Further thoughts about the lack of freshness .

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No
Actual experience has no content

However, is an apple actually known?

Well perhaps
When the senses contact “apple” that can be known. There after there is a flood of thoughts and thinking about thoughts.
These questions are hard to answer and I cant manage to get my actual experience down on paper! I write and rewrite.
Be well
MN

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

What is actually experienced when I look, smell and hold the apple:-
Holding the sensation gives rise to thoughts labeled; “weight”, “volume” and “shape” “temperature” on the top are known. giving rise to the labels “dense“, ”small apple” “dimple on top” and then that thought is sensed and further thinking speculation to variety, freshness etc The touch sensation “temperature “labeled as “cool” was known

Let’s keep it simple. The question was simply asking about colour. Just stick to the questions asked, that way you won't overwhelm yourself.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No
Actual experience has no content

Actual experience is everything EXCEPT the content of thought. Thought in and of itself contains no experience.

However, is an apple actually known?

Well perhaps
When the senses contact “apple” that can be known. There after there is a flood of thoughts and thinking about thoughts.
These questions are hard to answer and I cant manage to get my actual experience down on paper! I write and rewrite.

Yes, because you are thinking instead of just looking. Thought will take you down the rabbit hole every time. If thinking were the tool to use, then you would not have come to LU, you would have been able to think yourself to ‘awakening’!

Let’s try it this way.

I would like you to sit in a quiet room where noises outside can be heard. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE noise that you heard when doing this?

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

I would like you to sit in a quiet room where noises outside can be heard. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE noise that you heard when doing this?

bleep

[forgetmenot]

Hello MN,

Thank you, however, I need you to tell me what it is that is making the 'bleep' noise.

Love, Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Thank you, however, I need you to tell me what it is that is making the 'bleep' noise.

.
No sure exacly perhaps a reversing vehicle warning sound. It was repeating during th 5 mins i was litening.
Be well MN

[forgetmenot]

Okay perhaps you can do the exercise again...and just choose something that you hear in the room.

Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds happening in the room for a few minutes. Really hear them. (it needs to be a sound that you can rehear again).

Tell me ONE noise that you heard when doing this?

Kay

[Maitrinaga]

Tell me ONE noise that you heard when doing this?

The rustle of the bedding

Tricky to hear anything originating in this is a quiet room !