Looking For A Guide

[SamanthaR]

/Now is the time to check this thoroughly! So that there is no doubt about it anymore.
Do not rely on ANYTHING learned in this investigation.
Only ever look at the present direct experience and investigate for yourself.
Also no agreeing! When it is crystal clear, there needs to be no agreeing.

I know what you’re saying. I want to experience it intuitively and not just know it cognitively. I keep looking for that trigger or bit of info that will push me over the edge (so to speak) into the experience of it.
I have been scrutinizing my thoughts over the past week in hopes of getting to the experience. So far I still see them as arising from each other. Outside stimuli triggers a thought that triggers another like beads on a string. Before the first thought on the chain, there is either nothing or the same background noise that plays over and over in my head.
Only once in a while will a thought that’s unrelated to anything appear. It’s those that give me the best experience of not being the one who makes the thoughts, if that makes sense.
Like the experiment of me picking the number 98 in reaction to the question to pick a number, all the thoughts do seem to be just reactionary to perceptions and stimuli. But the ones later on in the chain seems to make them seem related.

I will get back to you in awhile on the football game and commentary. I wanted to put down the prior part first.

[SamanthaR]

On the football. I may need to do it over several times. Interestingly the link you attached is blocked in the US from copyright laws. I tried watching US football clips. I don’t understand the game that much, so it may be a perfect one to study.

Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

What seems to happen when the sound is off is that I am watching something that makes no sense. Random movements of color that are meaningless. I can almost sense, when I let go of a desire to understand what’s happening, a sort of excited curiosity about what I am seeing. Almost like joy at the wonder of what it means.
When I turn the commentary ON, the visual feels less alien and mysterious I guess. It gives context to what I am seeing. I have that feeling towards my thoughts about life as well. The ones in the chain seem to give meaning to what I perceived “on the outside.”

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen? And in the same way: Is the inner narration of a thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

They are not necessary for life to happen, but give it a context to be understood. Both in the football game and in life. I found the football game much more enjoyable without the sound on. When I think about turning off the mental commentary on life, I worry that I won’t be able to protect myself - it seems the thoughts think they are there to keep me safe. I want to be able to watch life with curiosity like I watched the game and without fear.

[Matthew]

Good observations!!

I have been scrutinizing my thoughts over the past week

How come there is a notion of "thoughts are MY thoughts"?

When there is a sunrise, you would not say: "This is MY colour."
When there is a bird singing, you would not say: "This is MY sound."

They are just colour and sound. They simply arise. No one made them arise and they belong to no one.

Is there a difference in the experience of the seen, the heard, the sensed and thought?

Are some more "mine" and other less "mine"?

When I think about turning off the mental commentary on life, I worry that I won’t be able to protect myself

Protect what exactly?
What does this "myself" point to?

thoughts think they are there to keep me safe

What exactly is this "me"?
Is it more than another thought?
Does a thought need protection?

[SamanthaR]

protect what exactly?
What does this "myself" point to?

This “myself” is just a group of thoughts and sensations that have be labeled to be “me”

Is there a difference in the experience of the seen, the heard, the sensed and thought?

There seems to be a more “real” quality to the seen, heard and physically felt vs thinking about seeing something. Seeing is direct experience and hence more concrete vs thoughts which are fuzzy and dissipate.

Are some more "mine" and other less "mine"?

There is a feeling that the thoughts are more mine, because others can experience the seen and the heard as well (however they experience colors or sounds for them) but cannot have a direct experience of “my” thoughts. So the thoughts feel more personal.

How come there is a notion of "thoughts are MY thoughts"?

They seem to be related to the direct experiences that have been had by the group of experiences that gets labeled as “me.” If appropriate - it brings back my question of boundaries from last week. I seem to only experience boundaries because I cannot experience the thoughts or perceptions of others; or of say the perception or experiences of the thing I label as “tree.”

...I am struggling with letting go of ownership of thoughts.

If I listen to a guided meditation that says “think of sitting on a beach,” who does the actual thinking in that case. Something seems to be guiding the thoughts in a direction. Or how does it work?

[Matthew]

There seems to be a more “real” quality to the seen, heard and physically felt vs thinking about seeing something.

That's right. Good observation.
Thoughts are experienced. They are part of direct experience.
What is NOT part of direct experience is the content of thoughts.
When there is a thought about a candle, then the thought "candle" is direct experience.
It is right there, it can be observed. When is NOT direct experience, is "The Candle".
It does not exist. It is just an illusory image. It cannot brighten the room.

How come there is a notion of "thoughts are MY thoughts"?

I cannot experience the thoughts or perceptions of others

So here is where we really get to the gist of things.
The gist of looking at direct experience versus thinking/assuming/believing.
How is it known that "others have thoughts"?
Can this be observed 100% accurately in direct experience? Or is it an assumption based on the learned and "what they tell you"?

If I listen to a guided meditation that says “think of sitting on a beach,” who does the actual thinking in that case. Something seems to be guiding the thoughts in a direction. Or how does it work?

Well... When listening to a voice that says: "Think of sitting on a beach".
And then a thought arises about "sitting on a beach".
What might be the cause for the thought to arise? ;-)

[SamanthaR]

Thoughts are experienced. They are part of direct experience.
What is NOT part of direct experience is the content of thoughts.
When there is a thought about a candle, then the thought "candle" is direct experience.
It is right there, it can be observed. When is NOT direct experience, is "The Candle".
It does not exist. It is just an illusory image. It cannot brighten the room.

I understand.

How is it known that "others have thoughts"?
Can this be observed 100% accurately in direct experience? Or is it an assumption based on the learned and "what they tell you"?

It is completely unknown. It is all based on an assumption from “what they tell me.”
Thank you for pointing this out - it is something I had not considered before.

Well... When listening to a voice that says: "Think of sitting on a beach".
And then a thought arises about "sitting on a beach".
What might be the cause for the thought to arise? ;-)

:-) ha! It seems I really have over complicated things...
Please let’s continue.

[Matthew]

it brings back my question of boundaries from last week

So is this still a thing?

If so,
Where exactly are those boundaries, what are they made of?
Where do you SEE a boundary?
Are there boundaries or is there an illusion, an imagitaion of boundaries?

What exactly here now is restrained by boundaries?

[SamanthaR]

it brings back my question of boundaries from last week

So is this still a thing?

It seems initially a bit different. I’m trying to get it to completely cement. I’m going to try to put it into words in hopes of solidifying it.

If all I can know are things in direct experience, including thoughts, then there is somehow the same “distance” between things— like the feel of a piece of fabric, and an interaction with another person. It may not have completely knocked down the boundaries in total, but it neutralized or equalized all the things I perceive as “external objects.”

It also helps neutralize fear. People seem to be no more potent than the tree, as I am just experiencing both of them.
It is very fleeting though and hard to grasp and hold completely.

Where exactly are those boundaries, what are they made of?

They are made of thoughts.

What exactly here now is restrained by boundaries?

I’m not sure yet. It is different than I would have suspected. It is not that I suddenly know what it feels like to be a tree or a cup of coffee, but my concept of what “I” am is changing.
I need to experience it a bit more, what can be done to solidify it? Or - I guess I should say - am I even on the right track?

[Matthew]

Trying to get something cement, solidifying something... That sounds like a lot of effort.
What we are aiming at here is the natural state. What does one have to do to reach the natural state?
That's right. Just relax, just be.
What we are aiming at here is zero distance. What does one have to do to reach zero distance?
That's right. Nothing at all.
Engage in this inquiry in a very light, relaxed, joyful and playful way.
Be gentle to yourself. Don't push anything. There is no rush. Let things fall into place.

It is very fleeting though and hard to grasp and hold completely.

Don't grasp onto it. Let it simply come by itself.
Have trust.



And yes, this is definitely the right track.
Overall very good observations!

People seem to be no more potent than the tree

Have a look at these two pictures.






All thought content aside.
What is the direct experience of these two pictures?
What can be SEEN?

[SamanthaR]

What we are aiming at here is zero distance. What does one have to do to reach zero distance?
That's right. Nothing at all.

I think I have felt this a few times. I did nothing and it came by itself, as you have said. Mostly when I do nothing though it doesn’t come. I am going to relax and let it come by itself.
It is a lot of work to solidify and cement.

Have a look at these two pictures.

All thought content aside.
What is the direct experience of these two pictures?
What can be SEEN?

This was perhaps the most difficult exercise yet. I SEE that they are just colors and shapes in direct experience. Visual labels that are representative of things “out there.” But it took me close to a week to get to this level of neutrality with the images. Initially, with the “tree” I saw color and vague form. It was neutral. Not pleasant or unpleasant. It was just a green shape. When I saw the image of the man my immediate reaction was physical in a fear/ confrontation sort of way. Although I recognized him from somewhere, I could not, and am still trying to just see him in direct experience as form, without my thought content, which seems to be automatic.

In the end the image is just shape and color, but it is so much more intense than the tree. Is it just a matter of more practice to be able to just see without the thought and emotional context?
I am able to do it in person somewhat, I’m not sure why the image would make it more difficult.

[Matthew]

It is a lot of work to solidify and cement.

Again, NO! :-)
This effort will lead nowhere!

What you are looking for is already true. The truth is always true.
So! Stop looking FOR something, but start looking AT things as they already are in this very moment!

I did nothing and it came by itself

The thing is: We are investigating an absence, not the presence of some "it".
Like this: Look at direct experience and report if a unicorn can be found.
Answer: There is no unicorn to be found.

In the same way: Look at direct experience and report if a "self" can be found.
Can a "self" be found more than a unicorn?



We will come back to this "human appearance" story if needed!
Please focus on the questions above for now.

[SamanthaR]

It is a lot of work to solidify and cement.

Again, NO! :-)
This effort will lead nowhere!.

You are misunderstanding me. I was agreeing with you on your previous statement that it is a lot of work. NOT reasserting that I was still attempting it. I was reasserting that I would cease trying to solidify. Sorry for the confusion.

.So! Stop looking FOR something, but start looking AT things as they already are in this very moment!

I will.

The thing is: We are investigating an absence, not the presence of some "it".
.

Ok.

In the same way: Look at direct experience and report if a "self" can be found.
Can a "self" be found more than a unicorn?

Logically the self and the unicorn are both thoughts.

Right now, it is only in the most minute granular moments that there is no self, only the experience of sensations or perceptions. It is only when I hyper focus in the most immediate sensations to the negation of all else, that only the AE of sensation exists.
I am having a hard time. Can we take a few steps back and restart from an earlier point?

Here’s one of the ways I am getting tripped up. If I manage to sustain - in a non meditative state, just the visual stimuli of an object, say a “blue pillow” - and I don’t experience it as a label, or something with meaning or use, just as colors; there is no joy, there is instead a feeling of confusion, some thoughtless random anxiety and maybe disorientation.
It is meaningless colors in a shape. It is almost unpleasant.

In order to generate childlike curiosity or joy at seeing the visual stimuli, it feels like minute thoughts have to get engaged which then moves things out of AE. If thoughts are engaged, there is also a sense of “self” or what I traditionally attribute as qualities or thoughts of the self, be them real or not that gets activated. I don’t know. I am unsure if I am explaining this adequately.

Where is the is the misstep?

[SamanthaR]

See the first post send a minute ago -
As a point of clarification- if I perceive something as a visual DE I do not have the experience of using any working memory or thought.
It is just sense perception. In this case visual. It is neutral and meaningless. It or “I” feel alien and lost. Is this part of the process?

[Matthew]

Can we take a few steps back and restart from an earlier point?

Sure!

I am having a hard time.

Where is the misstep?

Let us first focus on the emptiness of the assumed subject.
Once this is clear, we can look at the so called "objective world".
This is the most effortless approach.

It or “I” feel alien and lost. Is this part of the process?

This questions will lose its meaning on the way.

there is no joy

There are expectations in place. Expectations for something "more". Again, what we're aiming at is to see things as they already are.
Could you please write down the expectations, that are still in place?
These are the very hindrance of seeing this utter simplicity.
Expectation (thought) will always tell: "No, this is not "it". This is not what I am expecting!".
And the journey continues. Forever, because these thought created expectations can never be met.
What will be rediscovered through this inquiry is far richer than anything, which could ever happen to a "me".

there is instead a feeling of confusion, some thoughtless random anxiety and maybe disorientation.

What do "confusion", "anxiety" and "disorientation" consist of?

What is the direct experience of "confusion", "anxiety" and "disorientation"?

[SamanthaR]

Can we take a few steps back and restart from an earlier point?

Sure!

Thank you.

Could you please write down the expectations, that are still in place?
These are the very hindrance of seeing this utter simplicity.

Yes. There are expectations of feeling something ‘better’ than I now feel. I suppose a feeling of clarity is expected or a feeling of relief. The expectation that is mostly still operating is that there would be experiences that are without fear or anxiety. That there would be a feeling of freedom that I had glimmers of in the past, that it would be continuous and that somehow understanding will just sort of snap into place.

What do "confusion", "anxiety" and "disorientation" consist of?

They are thoughts and bodily sensations. It’s hard to say at times which comes first but they are both present and feed off each other.

What is the direct experience of "confusion", "anxiety" and "disorientation"?

Sensations of heat, palpitations, tightness in the body.
There are many thoughts in direct experience as well, thoughts that say that something is wrong.

There seems to be a striving for attaining something - the direct experience of striving is the same as above and plays into what you had asked earlier about expectations. There is a thought that “I” need to try harder to dissolve the “I”.