Seeing freedom

[SeeingFreely]

Hi Kay

What is different is that I have lots of new ideas about how I am experiencing things that I reflect on. The immediate experience of life seems much the same mostly though perhaps some things/thoughts feel lighter or more loosely held, especially if I take time to think about them.

I am still trying to figure out how these ideas about thought, self, time, choice work out in practice...I feel a bit stuck on some things like choice. I can see 'I' am not making choices but so much of what I do and how everybody talks is as if one can make choice/change. It certainly appears as though it is possible to at least try to change, to create conditions that make a different choice more likely but that still requires choice. For example, how is it possible to intentionally make a change such as quitting smoking? It seems rather hopeless to say that there is nothing to be done.

Overall I am finding the process very interesting and enjoying it and also a little frustrated in accepting/understanding how these ideas mean things work out.

With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna,

I am still trying to figure out how these ideas about thought, self, time, choice work out in practice...I feel a bit stuck on some things like choice. I can see 'I' am not making choices but so much of what I do and how everybody talks is as if one can make choice/change.

Describe in detail what it is exactly that is making choices?

It SEEMS that you are making choices and SEEMS is just another appearing thought! Choice and decision seem to go hand-in-hand. Let’s say, for example, that there is a ‘you’ making choices/decisions. Do the outcomes desired always happen from those choices/decisions? If not, why not?

So, bear with me on this….and do the following exercise. There will be a follow up in my next post. However, do this exercise several times and look very carefully.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

It certainly appears as though it is possible to at least try to change, to create conditions that make a different choice more likely but that still requires choice. For example, how is it possible to intentionally make a change such as quitting smoking? It seems rather hopeless to say that there is nothing to be done.

What is the AE of ‘choice’?

Investigate ‘decision making’ whatever ‘you’ do for the next few days.

For example the simple thing of getting out of bed. Look very very carefully.

Can a decision maker be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the ‘decision’, the ‘command’ to get up come from?
What makes the body get up, is there a ‘you’, or a decider that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?
How does the decision happen?
Does a decider come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences? Or does getting up just happen, or not?

Did an 'I' perform assessments and calculations necessary to heave a body into an upright position and then continue to take many decisions about moving legs into exactly the right positions to do 'walking to the kettle'?

Overall I am finding the process very interesting and enjoying it and also a little frustrated in accepting/understanding how these ideas mean things work out.

What is it exactly that is “a little frustrated in accepting/understanding how these ideas mean things work out”? Did you LOOK?

The label “frustration” is the AE of thought and not the AE of frustration
The sensation labelled as “frustration” is the AE of sensation and not the AE of frustration
The image labelled “me/I/body” is the AE of colour and not the AE of someone frustrated
The thoughts ABOUT ‘frustration” and what that means and the thoughts ABOUT a someone being frustrated are AE of thought and not the AE of frustration.

So what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about frustration/someone frustrated….but is frustration actually known?

This exploration is simply about realising there is no separate self. Anything more is done in another forum. You have seen how the idea of the separate self seems to come together via thought, the idea of choice/decision/control, the idea of the body, time and memory. It will take time for this to come together and make sense.

Many have an expectation that once the realisation has happened that everything will be crystal clear 24/7 - and that just isn’t the case. You have to keep on looking on a daily basis, (ie breaking things down into AE) consistently and constantly to see if you can find this separate self, and this includes the times when confusion and doubt appear….even frustration.

With love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna...you still with me?

Kay
xx

[SeeingFreely]

Hi Kay

Yes! Very sorry for not posting.

Been a busy week and didn't have the right mind for looking at all this. Sorry for not letting you know, and also don't have much phone battery. I will post properly tomorrow.

With love

Anna

[SeeingFreely]

Hi Kay

Yes! Very sorry for not posting.

Been a busy week and didn't have the right mind for looking at all this. Sorry for not letting you know, and also don't have much phone battery. I will post properly tomorrow.

With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anna,

Yes, if you could just drop a quick note saying you are busy, that would be great, as life happens, it just lets me know that you are busy and that you haven't decided to stop. I look forward to hearing from you.

Love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

Describe in detail what it is exactly that is making choices?

I don't know what is making choices. There are actions, actual experience of colour/sensation/thought and thoughts about choices being made.

Let’s say, for example, that there is a ‘you’ making choices/decisions. Do the outcomes desired always happen from those choices/decisions? If not, why not?

They do not! Because there isn't an all controlling 'I' to make the same choice over and over until the desired outcome is reached.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

I can't say what is choosing. There is just AE of sensation and colour. Sometimes there are thought saying 'it is just happening' and sometimes thoughts that say there is an 'i' choosing.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

I don't know!

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

No.

How is the decision made?

I can't tell - there are only thoughts about how the decision is made.

What is the AE of ‘choice’?

There is no AE of choice.

Can a decision maker be found making the body leave the bed?

No, haha!

Where does the ‘decision’, the ‘command’ to get up come from?

It doesn't. There are thoughts saying 'get up' but they do not always result in getting up.

What makes the body get up, is there a ‘you’, or a decider that commands the body?

No, only thought saying there is a me commanding and a me responsible for getting up.

When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?
How does the decision happen?

Not always. There is no AE of a decision.

Does a decider come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences? Or does getting up just happen, or not?

It just happens or not, usually accompanied by thoughts about pros and cons.

Did an 'I' perform assessments and calculations necessary to heave a body into an upright position and then continue to take many decisions about moving legs into exactly the right positions to do 'walking to the kettle'?

No.

What is it exactly that is “a little frustrated in accepting/understanding how these ideas mean things work out”? Did you LOOK?

There is sensation labelled as frustration and thoughts saying 'this is difficult to understand '.

So what is actually appearing is label + sensation + colour + thoughts about frustration/someone frustrated….but is frustration actually known?

No, frustration is not known in AE.


With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna,

Lovely looking!

Describe in detail what it is exactly that is making choices?

I don't know what is making choices. There are actions, actual experience of colour/sensation/thought and thoughts about choices being made.

Exactly! What is making choices is unknown, they are simply happening.

Let’s say, for example, that there is a ‘you’ making choices/decisions. Do the outcomes desired always happen from those choices/decisions? If not, why not?

They do not! Because there isn't an all controlling 'I' to make the same choice over and over until the desired outcome is reached.

Beautiful!

What is the AE of ‘choice’?

There is no AE of choice.

The AE of ‘choice’ is thought! The label and thoughts about choice (content of thought) are simply AE of thought and not the AE of ‘choice’ or someone choosing.

‘Choosing’ is a verb which points to there being a someone that is choosing something. And to choose something means that there is a someone choosing to experience something. And for someone/something to do the experiencing, it would require an experiencing (knowing) of experience (known).

Can a dividing line be found between experiencing and experience?
In other words can you find a dividing line between:-
hearer and sound
see-er and image/colour
smell and smeller,
taste and taster,
feeler and sensation?

Where does the ‘decision’, the ‘command’ to get up come from?

It doesn't. There are thoughts saying 'get up' but they do not always result in getting up.

Exactly! So it seems a decision is being made between the choice of getting up or not getting up. But the outcome is what helps to determine if there is an actual somebody making decisions and choices and to seeing if thought is the catalyst for ‘doing’!

Does a decider come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences? Or does getting up just happen, or not?

It just happens or not, usually accompanied by thoughts about pros and cons.

Yes, and those thoughts ABOUT pros and cons are content of thought.

What is it exactly that is “a little frustrated in accepting/understanding how these ideas mean things work out”? Did you LOOK?

There is sensation labelled as frustration and thoughts saying 'this is difficult to understand '.

When you looked, could you find anyone/anything that is frustrated or who is finding “this difficult to understand”? Were you not just simply aware of these thoughts and the sensation? Were they happening to a ‘you’?

With love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

Don't have time right now to read properly and respond. I'm having problems with my module internet signal since yesterday pm. Not sure what's going on with it so might not be able to post until I work it out. Hopefully very soon!

Love

Anna

[SeeingFreely]

Hi Kay

Can a dividing line be found between experiencing and experience?
In other words can you find a dividing line between:-
hearer and sound
see-er and image/colour
smell and smeller,
taste and taster,
feeler and sensation?

No! There is just sound, colour, sensation...

When you looked, could you find anyone/anything that is frustrated or who is finding “this difficult to understand”? Were you not just simply aware of these thoughts and the sensation? Were they happening to a ‘you’?

When I look there is only sensation and thought "this is difficult to understand" and thought "it is me that is experiencing not understanding" but this is again the content of thought. A 'me' this is happening to cannot be found.


With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hello Anna,

Can a dividing line be found between experiencing and experience?
In other words can you find a dividing line between:-
hearer and sound
see-er and image/colour
smell and smeller,
taste and taster,
feeler and sensation?

No! There is just sound, colour, sensation...

So where in there is a chooser?

Thought appears saying “but it still feels like I am choosing”. Can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

When you looked, could you find anyone/anything that is frustrated or who is finding “this difficult to understand”? Were you not just simply aware of these thoughts and the sensation? Were they happening to a ‘you’?

When I look there is only sensation and thought "this is difficult to understand" and thought "it is me that is experiencing not understanding" but this is again the content of thought. A 'me' this is happening to cannot be found.

And when you looked and saw this, how did you feel?

With love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

So where in there is a chooser?

A chooser cannot be found.

Thought appears saying “but it still feels like I am choosing”. Can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

A feeling can't choose. A feeling is thought pointing to sensation.

And when you looked and saw this, how did you feel?

When I looked and saw this there was sensation and thought that said 'this seems clear and matter-of-fact, so I feel okay'.


With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anna,

Thought appears saying “but it still feels like I am choosing”. Can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

A feeling can't choose. A feeling is thought pointing to sensation.

I want you to look at what actually is when the thought “I am choosing…..”, and see if there is an actual sensation. If there is no sensation, then the ‘feeling’ is not AE of sensation, but is simply a thought.

Thank-you for being so diligent in looking and answering questions to date. I just want to be thorough and make sure that nothing important has been missed. Here are some questions to help determine if there are any areas that may still need further exploring. Just simple and quick answers will do, you don't need to take time over them. Please answer what's true for you right now, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer.

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Is there a thinker of thought?
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration, and if so what are those differences?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

With love, Kay

[SeeingFreely]

Hey Kay

I want you to look at what actually is when the thought “I am choosing…..”, and see if there is an actual sensation. If there is no sensation, then the ‘feeling’ is not AE of sensation, but is simply a thought.

I can see feeling is thought, but there is always sensation...

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?

Yes.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

Yes.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

No.

Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

No.

Is there a thinker of thought?
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?

No.

Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?

No.

Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?

No.

Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration, and if so what are those differences?

No. Actual experience is the same. There are thoughts about the above that say this is a different way of seeing. And sometimes I remember to apply that and break things down to AE.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

No.


With love

Anna

[forgetmenot]

Hey Anna,

I want you to look at what actually is when the thought “I am choosing…..”, and see if there is an actual sensation. If there is no sensation, then the ‘feeling’ is not AE of sensation, but is simply a thought.

I can see feeling is thought, but there is always sensation...

And what is thought labelling this sensation as?

If the thought, for example, appears saying, “I feel like chocolate ice-cream today instead of vanilla”, or “I feel like wearing the red dress instead of the blue”, is there an actual sensation, or is word “feeling” simply pointing to thought?

Do you notice a difference now, to when you first started this exploration, and if so what are those differences?

No. Actual experience is the same. There are thoughts about the above that say this is a different way of seeing. And sometimes I remember to apply that and break things down to AE.

This question was asking if you have noticed differences within yourself etc to when you first started this exploration and if you have what are those differences? How does it feel to see through the illusion of the separate self? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

For example, in your introductory post, you wrote:-

What are you looking for at LU? I am curious.

To end the suffering inherent in clinging to separate self.
To directly experience the knowledge of no-self and allow that to be the answer to all my questions of what happens after realisation.

How is this for you now? Have there been any changes?

With love, Kay