None whatsoever! So what is left after that? I assume that this question too is concocted by the "I"? All that is, is the here and now.So, is there a self, in any way, shape or form?
Perhaps that is one expectation that I have, that once I truly see that the I does not exist, what remains after the I is no more will make everything about existence and being clear to me. ( and how and why the I appeared to come into existence in the first place)How do you mean "What is left after that"?
Earlier it was more of an intellectual understanding, but gradually I think I am really starting to see this. The problem however seems that somehow this understanding doesn't compute i.e. I am left totally non-plussed. All my life I have been living as if I exist and that I to some extent at least control "my" life. Now that I sense to some extent at least that the "I" doesn't exist, I feel totally lost or something. I do not know what to do or say and to understand that I actually don't have to know what to do or say makes everything seem so confusing. Perhaps that was how the above expression "What is left after that?" came out from me. It seems that most of the time I am avoiding the implications of the I not existing because it is not convenient for me to do so. One would have thought that once you knew the I was false like Santa, you would have nothing more to do with him. Santa can be ignored for the rest of my life with hardly any effort but how does one live our day to day life ignoring the I.Do you feel that you have really seen this in action( that theres no self) or do you still feel its more of an intellectual understanding? How does it feel to see this?
Seems like a pretty unrealistic expectation to me. Yes, clarity is increased, but there is still delusion, still a whole load of beliefs to be found and looked at. You dont get an insta-download of knowledge or something.Perhaps that is one expectation that I have, that once I truly see that the I does not exist, what remains after the I is no more will make everything about existence and being clear to me. ( and how and why the I appeared to come into existence in the first place)
Ok, who feels totally lost? Is this not all just the mind doing what it does best, trying to understand and make sense of what it perceives? Look at these thoughts and see that they are just thoughts, no one doing them.Earlier it was more of an intellectual understanding, but gradually I think I am really starting to see this. The problem however seems that somehow this understanding doesn't compute i.e. I am left totally non-plussed. All my life I have been living as if I exist and that I to some extent at least control "my" life.
Now that I sense to some extent at least that the "I" doesn't exist, I feel totally lost or something. I do not know what to do or say and to understand that I actually don't have to know what to do or say makes everything seem so confusing. Perhaps that was how the above expression "What is left after that?" came out from me.
You dont have to ignore the I. How could you, since there is no one there to do the ignoring? There is no one there to "have nothing more to do with him" . These thoughts reference, and probably always will, a non existent "I". Its a useful function of the brain. All we are doing, is seeing that the "I" that is referred to , does not in fact exist.It seems that most of the time I am avoiding the implications of the I not existing because it is not convenient for me to do so. One would have thought that once you knew the I was false like Santa, you would have nothing more to do with him. Santa can be ignored for the rest of my life with hardly any effort but how does one live our day to day life ignoring the I.
Ok, who feels totally lost? Is this not all just the mind doing what it does best, trying to understand and make sense of what it perceives? Look at these thoughts and see that they are just thoughts, no one doing them.
Ok, thank you, you have managed to get me back on track after I meandered away. It seems I keep doing that and get carried away by doubts which arise. For the past few years I have had this notion that I am really awareness and that the I thought is a legitimate outlet or expression of this awareness. I guess that notion is not quite true. I am still re-reading and going through your last post since I think that I really need to immerse fully in all that you have said.It appears that you still believe that theres an "I" here to be liberated. That this "I" can ignore the other "I", and hence will be liberated. But all you are doing is replacing the old "I" with a new one. Really look at this. Look at the thoughts that come up, is the "I" that can ignore the other "I" also non existant?
I may have been overly simplistic in my expectation here and I am not expecting omniscience but this is one point which I find difficult to let go. I am still curious to know how I (or awareness) managed to entrap myself in this mess or the mechanics of how the whole thing came about.Seems like a pretty unrealistic expectation to me. Yes, clarity is increased, but there is still delusion, still a whole load of beliefs to be found and looked at. You dont get an insta-download of knowledge or something.
Yes, you mentioned this before, that you were identifying with the witness. You need to look and see if its true? Is awareness a you? If it is you, then what is witnessing the witness? Is the feeling of being awareness anything more than a thought about "I" being the awareness?Ok, thank you, you have managed to get me back on track after I meandered away. It seems I keep doing that and get carried away by doubts which arise. For the past few years I have had this notion that I am really awareness and that the I thought is a legitimate outlet or expression of this awareness. I guess that notion is not quite true. I am still re-reading and going through your last post since I think that I really need to immerse fully in all that you have said.
I could give you guesses or explanations, but its irrelevant really. What matters is what is happening now. So keep looking at what is happening in your everyday experience, and let go of some of the thoughts and needs to explain the "why", at least for now?I may have been overly simplistic in my expectation here and I am not expecting omniscience but this is one point which I find difficult to let go. I am still curious to know how I (or awareness) managed to entrap myself in this mess or the mechanics of how the whole thing came about.
Ok, I looked clearly at this and see that awareness is impersonal. The "I" is merely a thought. I was reading "Gateless Gatecrashers" again yesterday and one sentence hit me in a way it never did before. It was about someone having a thought "I am thinking". I think the context in which it was mentioned in the book was different as compared to the context in which the sentence hit me. I realized clearly for the first time what was meant when you say that thoughts are real but the content is not.Yes, you mentioned this before, that you were identifying with the witness. You need to look and see if its true? Is awareness a you? If it is you, then what is witnessing the witness? Is the feeling of being awareness anything more than a thought about "I" being the awareness?
Ok, point noted. I have had over the years a lot of anger arising in myself trying to answer this question. You know the deal; I don't exist but I end up having to find a way out of suffering and to figure out why I don't exist. What a load of crap! The natural inclination is to blame God or somebody / anybody for the predicament that I find myself in and which as far as I am aware I did not ask for. But I understand that this question and anger takes you away from the inquiry and the question itself is probably based on the falsehoods arising in the world of duality. But it sure feels good getting pissed off at God / Somebody / Anybody !I could give you guesses or explanations, but its irrelevant really. What matters is what is happening now. So keep looking at what is happening in your everyday experience, and let go of some of the thoughts and needs to explain the "why", at least for now?
Yes. Thoughts are real. sometimes the content can point to something real, eg thought of your car, which relates to an object in reality. Other times, the content points to nothing that exists in reality, eg santa claus, or the self.Ok, I looked clearly at this and see that awareness is impersonal. The "I" is merely a thought. I was reading "Gateless Gatecrashers" again yesterday and one sentence hit me in a way it never did before. It was about someone having a thought "I am thinking". I think the context in which it was mentioned in the book was different as compared to the context in which the sentence hit me. I realized clearly for the first time what was meant when you say that thoughts are real but the content is not.
Well, you could say that thinking happens, but theres no entity actively doing it, controlling it. As you say, the thoughts appear fully formed.The complete thought "I am thinking" as a whole [It may appear to consist of parts consisting of separate words but can still be considered as a single object] was real as a thing called "thought". But the words in the thought or sentence do not point to anything real and is complete nonsense. Do thoughts come out through a process called thinking? Most of the time it seems they appear fully formed except for some occasions when you are puzzling over something and your thoughts on it arise slowly in staggered steps and perhaps only half formed. The same goes for the word "I" or "I am"? Merely because such words exist, we immediately assume the existence of "I" despite there being no other corroborative evidence. I saw this not through the logical steps which I have given here [and which only arose later after some thinking was done] but I "saw" the thought itself (any thought) as a whole object arising in awareness without any power to describe reality, since reality can't be described.
Yes, am seeing this more clearly in more and more everyday situations and conversations and realizing the general falsehood of thoughts. Another insight that occurred to me the other day is that "believing" is actually a term for "wrong seeing" and that ultimately all beliefs are false including ones that we normally don't class as beliefs, like the belief in the existence of an "I" .So, if you see that the thoughts are not pointing to anything in reality, do you need to believe anything that these thoughts say about the imaginary self, which is just a made up story? Or anything these thoughts say about anyone elses imaginary self ( which are also just made up stories in your head)
Yes, its hard to grasp, but all beliefs are false. They may be useful pointers, or contain concepts that help us operate, but ultimately they are false.Yes, am seeing this more clearly in more and more everyday situations and conversations and realizing the general falsehood of thoughts. Another insight that occurred to me the other day is that "believing" is actually a term for "wrong seeing" and that ultimately all beliefs are false including ones that we normally don't class as beliefs, like the belief in the existence of an "I" .So, if you see that the thoughts are not pointing to anything in reality, do you need to believe anything that these thoughts say about the imaginary self, which is just a made up story? Or anything these thoughts say about anyone elses imaginary self ( which are also just made up stories in your head)
Yes, I see clearly that the "I" is imagined in thought and does not exist. No, I do not have any doubts on this. The "I" never did exist. I feel somehow that I need to live this understanding for some time as other then the understanding I do not detect any other changes except that I do not get carried away by the "I" as often or as easily as before this. I notice it when it happens and that noticing slowly seems to ease me out of it on its own.So, give me an update on where you are with all of this? Are you seeing it clearly? Any doubt remain? Is there an "I" outside of thought? Was there ever?
I am not sure if I should be attempting this questions at this stage but since you ask, I will write what I have seen so far.Ok so, can you answer the following questions. Write as much as you can for each.
No, there is no 'me' anywhere, in any way, shape or form or at any time. It was an assumption which was never really looked at or studied to confirm its veracity.1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Well, the best way I can put it is that the separate self is a "learned" phenomenon. Only "learning" is normally associated with knowledge and wisdom; in this case however it is learned "ignorance". The illusion of the separate self starts the moment the content of thoughts is mistaken for reality or that it can adequately represent reality. It is like some of the people of the present day who mistake their Facebook page as representative of themselves and get so uptight about what happens on the page to the extent that some kids commit suicide after being bullied in virtual space. The virtual self is "believed" into existence.2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
For me, there was a very short period of exaltation which felt more like a sigh of relief. And then everything was back as it was before. Doubts started forming again whether I had ever actually seen "anything". Worries started creeping in again about what "I" should be "doing" from now on. I watched all these for a few days and realized that these will continue to crop up as long "I" entertained the notion that "I" existed. You can't think the "I" away so you learn to live with it, with the knowledge that it does not exist and slowly you realize that most human concepts are built on the "I" concept; so that once you sense the "I" concept is imagination, all the other concepts slowly dry up as it is seen that they too lack reality.3) How does it feel to see this?
I would not even make an attempt to do so, as I doubt very much that this can be described in any way that makes sense for most people. If pressed, I would say that the "I" is an entirely mental and verbal construct and does not in fact actually exist.4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.
I am not really sure if there was any "last bit", or even that "I" have been "pushed over" anything as yet. But then I think that what we call 'certainty' is actually mental certainty built on human logic and such certainty is not what we are looking for here to confirm that we have really seen the truth that the "I" does not exist.5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Heh, I am not sure either, I wanted to get a good picture of where you are though.I am not sure if I should be attempting this questions at this stage but since you ask, I will write what I have seen so far.
When I look at this, actually I think that I have indeed seen this. The doubts that came up were mainly because of expectations, I think. Although I did not have any specific expectation, I had read of Tony Parsons experiencing "oneness", an unemployed Eckhardt Tolle "in bliss" sitting on park benches all day long , Zen masters who claim that realization comes with an "unshakable" conviction of the truth, the laughter that arises for a lot of people once the "cosmic joke" is seen through, etc, etc. I did not expect any particular result but I had held a hope that something or other would arise in my experience or internally to convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the truth has finally been seen and recognized.So what doubts remain for you? Give me another big spiel about your doubts. Why do you think that you havent seen this?
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