Ready to dive in...

[Derek]

Hi, Nueve,

I'm interested to know what that fear is, the fear elicited by Cam-RT's question about where thoughts come from.

You've seen that the body just is, and only the mind superimposes the word "my" on the physical reality.

The feelings of lowness, tightness, and anxiety are there. A story about an "I" who is "losing the battle" is there.

Is there any desire for things to be other than they are?

Derek.

[ixturtle]

Is there any desire for things to be other than they are?

I keep coming back to this question over the past few days but haven't had the will to answer it... but the answer of course is yes, in two senses.
1) there's the "I"s desire for certain happenings in "my" life to be "other than they are", which of course is a recipe for suffering, but there it is.
2) there's a longing to see through that desire and just let it all be, which again, is a desire for things to be "other than they are".

As for what's behind the fear about what's behind thought, I suppose its a fear of meaninglessness-- either that or a fear that "I" won't ever be able to see/know. More the latter I think.

Blessings to you all--
R.

[Derek]

Take a careful look at how that happens.

This desire for "my" life to be other than it is -- is it anything other than a story composed of words and thoughts? What would be left if you took the words and stories away? What would be left if you took the word "my" out of it? Take a look!

Does the word "I" excrete desires? Or is the word "I" like a label, attached to a desire after the event? Which is it?

Fear of meaninglessness is quite common. Meaning, for the ego, is simply the perpetuation of ego-stories, and above all the perpetuation of the ego's belief in its own substantial existence. If you've hit that fear, then you've gotten closer to seeing that there's really no on there.

[ixturtle]

What would be left if you took the words and stories away? What would be left if you took the word "my" out of it?

What's left without words and stories is just what's here right now. For something different to exist requires a relative past and future, which is only composed of words in my head. This of course is not a new idea, but somehow I see it clearer now, or rather in a new way. Thank you.

The word "my" seems to point to something right now... but as we established earlier, the word actually takes me away from the experience, rather than towards it. Without "my", the story is just a bunch of words arising in the moment, impersonal.

Still having trouble disentangling from the physical feelings but will keep looking with this view in hand...

[Derek]

Ah, now you are seeing!

"Disentangling" is a good way to put it. A word here, a physical feeling there, and suddenly there is the illusion of a self. So keep on disentangling the parts until you see there's really nothing solid in the middle. It's just a collection of entangled parts with nothing at their core.

How long does each physical feeling last?

When a thought with the word "I" or "my" in it appears, how long does the thought last?

What order do things happen in -- the physical feeling, the thought with "my" in it arising?

[ixturtle]

Does the word "I" excrete desires? Or is the word "I" like a label, attached to a desire after the event? Which is it?

Forgot to tackle this question... Obviously "I" doesn't excrete desires. But what does? Hmmmm... In any case, a desire arises from somewhere (mind/body interacting based on conditioning I suppose) and "I" claims the desire as its own, going so far as to bank its happiness on the fulfillment of said desire.

Need to get quiet with this one. Or do "I"...?

How long does each physical feeling last?

Some feel like "forever" but since there's constant change with each sensation, the truth is but a moment. Big resistance here... which I'm guessing points to big "story." Arggg! Why do we cling so tight to a thorny branch, a mind-made one at that?!?

When a thought with the word "I" or "my" in it appears, how long does the thought last?

But a moment...but it triggers sensation which triggers more "I". HELP! GET ME OFF THE GERBIL WHEEL!!!!

Sigh...

[Derek]

There's nothing to do except watch.

The swirling sensations, the I thoughts, the reactions to the I thoughts, the desires, the "I" word staking a claim on the desires, and so on.

Is there a self anywhere at all in all this? Look and see!

[ixturtle]

There's nothing to do except watch.

Fascinating viewing... how often the "I" wants to stake a claim, especially in the company of others. But I'm back to a more relaxed version of the whack-a-mole game, which feels right. For a while there I was feeling pretty lost from this endeavor. Thanks for sticking with me.

Is there a self anywhere at all in all this? Look and see!

Keep coming back to the feeling of contraction at the heart, which I can see moves and ebbs and flows and is triggered by words and "just is" without them... and yet! I met a fellow this summer who noted that he finally came to see that his own contraction at the heart was most likely his first early experience of self-identification and so it wasn't a surprise that it "feels like me". This seeing seemed to free him, but all my reason (which is admittedly different from seeing) seems powerless against it.

Perhaps the mole will soon grow tired of being smacked on the head...

[Derek]

Fascinating viewing... how often the "I" wants to stake a claim, especially in the company of others.

You're right on track there.

But I'm back to a more relaxed version of the whack-a-mole game, which feels right. For a while there I was feeling pretty lost from this endeavor. Thanks for sticking with me.

You're welcome. But don't go whacking anything. The apparent person, which pops up from time to time, is just a temporary configuration of thoughts and sensations. It comes and it goes. You don't need to whack it, just look at it. Since it comes and it goes, it cannot possibly be the supposed solid and permanent self you imagine it to be. It's just a phenomenon.

So look again. Is there a solid and permanent self anywhere to be seen? If so, where is it?

Keep coming back to the feeling of contraction at the heart, which I can see moves and ebbs and flows and is triggered by words and "just is" without them.

That's right on, too. The contractions just flow, just happen.

.. and yet! I met a fellow this summer who noted that he finally came to see that his own contraction at the heart was most likely his first early experience of self-identification and so it wasn't a surprise that it "feels like me". This seeing seemed to free him, but all my reason (which is admittedly different from seeing) seems powerless against it. Perhaps the mole will soon grow tired of being smacked on the head...

Don't reason. Don't smack. Just look. The contraction is a fleeting experience. Is there a self in all this, anywhere at all?

[ixturtle]

Just look. The contraction is a fleeting experience. Is there a self in all this, anywhere at all?

Headed out of town this week-- will do my best to "just look". Probably won't be able to post until I return.

Best to you all--
ix

[Derek]

Ok. I am going to terminate my involvement in this thread now, partly to concentrate on other projects, and partly because I find it very wearing when clients take several days to do a few seconds of honest looking. Since it's a Three-on-One, you might be able to attract another guide along with Cam-RT and Eloratea.

[vinceschubert]

Hi ix, vince here, stepping in for Derek.
Wow, i just waded through 7 pages of posts and am impressed with your sincerity and persistence.
You are selling yourself short (excuse the language conventions, 'you' 'yourself')
Tell what are the expectations of liberation ? How will it be ? How will you know you are 'through' the gate ?

[ixturtle]

Hi Vinceschubert--
Thanks for jumping in, and for the kind words re., sincerity and persistence. I appreciate Derek's honesty re., why he jumped out, though it funnily enough made me quite sad. I was away from a computer this week, but in the prior couple week's my own enthusiasm flagged-- hard to post when knowing what I "should" see, and not seeing it, and feeling quite disappointed and weary myself. In any case, thank you SOO much for your kind words re., sincerity and persistence. They help me get back on the horse.
So: my expectations...
I guess I just expect that something in my perspective would shift deeply such that --like everyone says-- "everything would be the same, but everything would be different." And that this seeing clearly would be enough to stop getting "caught" by life's emotional storms and personal contractions/stories. And there would be a certain lightness to it all. I guess I would "know" I was through the gate if I genuinely (and joyfully) didn't care about my drama anymore because there would be no-one to own it. And thus, "sad heart" wouldn't be sad anymore... which is probably a "wrong expectation" but ultimately its what drives this sincere persistence... ;-)
Best,
ix

[vinceschubert]

And thus, "sad heart" wouldn't be sad anymore...

What if "sad heart" still existed but there was an Ok-ness there about it ?
How could this be ?

[ixturtle]

What if "sad heart" still existed but there was an Ok-ness there about it ?
How could this be ?

It could be if, as said just prior, there was no one to own sad heart... just another arising. But even just writing that sends "me" reeling...