Requesting guidance through the gate

[OneClearSun]

Hello Robyn,

It's been a very busy day and I don't have time to write a full reply at the moment, just wanted to say thank you for your quick response, I appreciate it.

I will try to post later this evening, if not today, then tomorrow.

Have a great day!

[Artst]

Thank you for letting me know.

Sending love,

Robyn

[OneClearSun]

Hi, Robyn,
I'll try to fill in the gaps from the last couple of days, so it may be a bit long.

Are you familiar with the story, The Emperor's New Clothe by Hans Christain Andersen? In that story, the emperor was duped into believing a very special set a of new clothes had been made for him that was invisible to anyone who was unfit for his position, stupid or incompetent. So everyone pretended to be able to see the new clothes so as not be considered stupid. (Perhaps they even believed the clothes were there but they couldn't see them!) Finally, a child cries out that the emperor has on no clothes.

We have been taught that we are an I. We have a name that individuates us. The child in the story spoke up for his Direct Experience. In doing the work of looking here at LU, you are becoming like the child in the story -- telling the way it is.

Oh yes, I'm familiar with this story, what a wonderful example!

This can indeed be an uncomfortable process. On the other hand, exciting maybe, right? No I to be attached to beliefs.

Orr, what do beliefs consist of in DE?

There's definitely some excitement mixed in.

In DE, beliefs consist of thoughts and nothing else, when looked at directly they have no substance at all.

Yesterday some of the fears that I mentioned in the first post came up, and suddenly there was this clear realization, that these conclusions about the meaning of life that I was afraid of having, that some people have wrote about after having an awakening experience or seeing through the self - are just that - beliefs. Words. Labels. Thoughts.
I was afraid of thoughts! The experience of seeing is the same, it is what it is, but the cosmological woo-woo explanations and beliefs that come after the seeing, vary widely.
And honestly, I don't care for them. It's very clear that seeing is the freeing factor. When I was looking and seeing how every belief and label is just a thought, and how DE keeps on doing its thing, just happening, regardless of beliefs and labels, I felt this huge relief. There is no commitment to any point-of-view, only to direct seeing.

Okay, that came out as bit of a word-salad. The important thing here is that there was a definite shift in my perspective on the process of seeing, and it replaced the fears with excitement about the freedom and potential that these glimpses start to reveal. It feels much more like a beginning of something new than a completion of some quest.

What does confusion consist of in DE?

Thoughts again...
Thoughts that try to reach some logical conclusion through dialogue with other thoughts and can't seem to make it. There are some physical sensations of contraction and some emotional feelings which thought labels as confusion.
When looked at directly, confusion is just as clear as any other state. It's like looking at a beautiful, clear, realistic painting of a meadow, and then looking at an abstract painting of an incomprehensible mish-mash of lines. The content of the paintings is different but the looking is just as clear for both of them.

I want to share this with you, there's this feeling that has been continuously unfolding for the last couple of days, and today it was very strong and lasted longer.

Life feels like a train that just keeps moving, and there isn't even a passenger on this train, just the train itself. Sensations, emotions, sounds, sights, thoughts - they just keep moving and changing and flowing non-stop, everything is in constant motion, and every once in a while there is a looking for the experiencer, and all that's found is just experience itself, changing constantly, the train keeps rolling, it's a constant happening. And every time that the looking is happening and no seperate experiencer is found, there's a wonderful sense of relief, like some imaginary person is holding on to the reins of a horse like his life depends on it, trying to steer it in the right direction, and then he realizes that the reins were never there and the horse always moved by itself, that there's no need for this holding on, so he just releases the reins and experiences the ride.

Ugh it sounds so flowery, but the experience is very real and down to earth! Very clear, yet it doesn't last that long..
It might be just a passing state, or a result of the glimpses of seeing through the illusion of the self, but it may be a positive sign?

I don't want to get too excited about it, because throughout the day I still had long periods (especially at work) of feeling and operating from the perspective of a seperate self, and only when I looked at DE again did the identification started to release its hold.

How come there hasn't been a direct experience of seeing through the self that is powerful enough to break the illusion and doubts? (yes, doubts are thoughts, I can see that, but when you discover Santa isn't real, there aren't any doubts anymore, and even if you play along and imagine Santa or tell your kids about him, there's an unquestionable knowing that he's not real, so why do these thoughts come up?).

Could there be something that I've missed, some trick of the mind? The seeing feels more like seeing through obscured glass, not yet clear and vivid in a "Aha! that's it!" kind of way.

I would appreciate it if you could give me some "test questions" I could use, or different pointers to check for any hidden resistance or something I've missed that still gives the impression of a seperate self.

Thank you very much Robyn.

[Artst]

Dear Orr,

Yesterday some of the fears that I mentioned in the first post came up, and suddenly there was this clear realization, that these conclusions about the meaning of life that I was afraid of having, that some people have wrote about after having an awakening experience or seeing through the self - are just that - beliefs. Words. Labels. Thoughts.

Nice! The clouds are parting and the sun is shining through. :-)

the cosmological woo-woo explanations and beliefs that come after the seeing, vary widely.

Yes. That's why we stress setting aside learnings, theories and expectations. They interfere with seeing.

I felt this huge relief

YEA!

Okay, that came out as bit of a word-salad.

Not at all. It was quite clear.

The important thing here is that there was a definite shift in my perspective on the process of seeing, and it replaced the fears with excitement about the freedom and potential that these glimpses start to reveal. It feels much more like a beginning of something new than a completion of some quest.

Perfect! That's wonderful!

I found what you wrote to be quite beautiful.

When looked at directly, confusion is just as clear as any other state.

Brilliant!

I don't want to get too excited about it, because throughout the day I still had long periods (especially at work) of feeling and operating from the perspective of a seperate self, and only when I looked at DE again did the identification started to release its hold.

So, you have an expectation that that shouldn't happen once you've seen? Sorry. ;-)

so why do these thoughts come up?)

I don't really know. Seems like they're just automatic patterns of thoughts. As you wrote, this is a beginning, not a final arriving. Once you have seen, you have seen and you won't un-see it. There is an unfolding of living life with the illusion of 'I' seen as an illusion.

I don't think you've missed anything but let me ask you this now:

Can you say with a big fat yes that there is no 'I?'

If the answer is yes, I will send you some final questions so that you and I can discover if there is something we have missed. By the way, we always send these questions and you're the first person I've guided to have requested them!

I look forward to hearing back from you, Orr.

Sending love,

Robyn

[OneClearSun]

So, you have an expectation that that shouldn't happen once you've seen? Sorry. ;-)

Hahah, well that's encouraging.

Can you say with a big fat yes that there is no 'I?'

YES.
There are still periods of identification but as soon as looking happens, identification dissolves and it's clear as day that the 'I' is a complete fabrication and always was so.

[Artst]

Hi, Orr,

Here are the final questions. Enjoy!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.  What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Sending love!

Robyn

[OneClearSun]

Hello Robyn, thank you!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. These are all labels, thoughts, that don't point to anything. It's a mental concept which dissolves as soon as you look directly at it.
There never was a self, only experience. There is uniqueness, different points of experience, but no self who owns, observes, or creates the experience.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is the belief in an imaginary "self" who is in charge and owns every experience (everything happens "to it", or "it decided" to do something, "it understands" - basically it is the subject of every experience).
This belief in an imaginary separate self creates the illusion of separateness from everything that is not "I", seperation from life itself. The illusion creates the - honestly, sick - view of being alieneted from life, that somehow this self is not a part of this huge experience of life which created every experience in the first place, the illusion that somehow it's not life living itself!

The way I see it now, at a young age begins a process of labeling experience, probably alongside the development of language, it's a process of boxing every experience into a particular label.
This whole process of labeling experience and making maps from direct experience is done trough thought, self referencing, like a computer program with many different parts interacting, yet there is no person, no central entity or a manager to this process.
It's a very useful process, but a problem happens. The program learns through language, through the concept of subject and object, and enviormental conditioning, that it is actually seperate self, and a thus a new belief is created.
The thing is, unlike the labels "table", "shoes", "body" etc., the label "self" doesn't point to anything real within direct experience!

I have memories from early childhood, in which it was clear that "I" don't exist, and experience just kept on flowing together with everything else, but at other times this belief was starting to take hold.
So that probably means that the constant social conditioning that goes on in modern society, through language, and the fact that no one ever teaches or even considers the possibility of questioning it, causes the belief in a "self" to become more and more habitual.
As people grow up, they are living more and more in the imaginary maps and stories they created, and direct experience becomes a rare occurance.

And... the illusory nature of the self can only be seen through direct experience, which is why it seems rare to have this simple insight.
When I looked at direct experience (which I can now say "when looking happend" because it's so clear that there was no "I" who initiated it), and kept returning to it again and again,
I was amazed at how I've spent SO MUCH time living through these maps, concepts, beliefs, and labels (which include of course the belief in a separate me), and how they are all just thoughts arising and disappearing. It's like living in a virtual reality!

When this belief takes hold, there's this constant tension of trying to protect this "self", alienation from the enviorment, and a whole lot of new (and destructive!) beliefs that all stem from the same root. This is so absurd, it's like a cell in the body of Life is sick and its belief in a self causes it to wreak havoc throughout Life's body in the name of something that never even existed.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There are some fluctuations.. I might be busy at work and operate through the lens of a self, or maybe start philosophizing about whether there's a hidden deeper meaning of no-self and questioning how come people spend decades to reach this insight and ridicule those who claim to have seen so quickly without traditional practice.
But then.. there's a spontaneous reminder of the simple reality of it all, and the direct experience of the moment shows so clearly that there isn't any self, and I literally laugh out loud at the thoughts "I" had earlier.

There are still questions about the nature of things, and old beliefs coming up, but after seeing the truth they all just seem to be thought patterns - a process of clearing.

I guess I expected that after the seeing there would be a sudden shift, a *click* and everything changes, but it appears to be a gradual process.

As for the differences from before I started this dialogue and now...
There's a sense of relief, like releasing a burden by not needing to protect this figment of the imagination, this thought of a separate self. It's so much easier to let experience unfold by itself.
I don't know, it's hard to pin-point the exact effects, it's like experiencing life through a different perspective.
Not really like an altered state because everything is the same.. but on the other hand it feels very much like an altered state! There's a rigidness that gets more and more loose and flexible.
Hard to describe this feeling of same-but-different. Relief, trust, curiousity, groundedness, are some words that come up.

In one way, nothing really changed, but how could it? there wasn't a self in the first place! It's still just sensations, feelings, sights, sounds and thoughts.. experience flowing like it always has been.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Constantly returning to Direct Experience was like the pillar of seeing, but the last push I think was when I grappled with the arm-moving exercise, and then looked at the doer.
Here's the bit I'm talking about from my original post:

I took a break, and came back to try it again.
The arm is moving, there is movement which itself doesn't seem to come from any doer. It's just happening.
This time I'm looking at the counting, the intention to start/keep/stop moving the arm, and the thoughts evaluating the process in real-time, through Direct Experience, and they all seem to happen by themselves! just like everything else. Yes there is intention, evaluation etc. but they happen without anyone initiating them.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

No one makes things happen. Every intention and choice simply arises, followed by doing, all happening by itself. There is no middleman to this process, there is no and cannot be any control over this process, there is no one who controls, intends, decides etc.

"I" sit in front of the computer, typing this answer.
There is a seeing of the question, interpretation of its meaning, thoughts constructing an answer, then there is an intention to type, movement of the fingers, while thoughts analyze the process in real time. No manager, no controller, no person at all! It's clear as clear can be.
This whole process just happens, it's ridiculous to think otherwise when actually looking at it. Kind of like bubbles floating to the surface from nowhere.


...

Alright Robyn, I hope that's enough for now
Waiting to hear back from you :)

[Artst]

Hi, Orr,

Thank you for your answers. They seem very clear to me. I'm going to pass them along to a couple of other guides to see if they have any questions or points of clarification I should go over with you. I'll get back to you either way, either with questions or, if they have none, you will receive an invitation to the private LU Aftercare group, for people who have crossed the gate.

Orr, do you think you would be interested in becoming a guide for others who come to Liberation Unleashed?

Sending love,

Robyn

[Artst]

Dear Orr,

I see that you should have received an email with an invitation to LU Aftercare. Congratulations on having crossed the Gateless Gate!

As I menioned in my pervious message, I think you would make a great guide for others. If you're interested, let me know and I'll get you hooked up with the information you need in order to get started.

Sending love,

Robyn

[OneClearSun]

Hi Robyn, I couldn't use the computer yesterday, and today I logged in and saw your post and the private message, awesome!

As I menioned in my pervious message, I think you would make a great guide for others. If you're interested, let me know and I'll get you hooked up with the information you need in order to get started.

That sounds like someting I'd love to do! but right now I need some time off to let everything sink in more comfortably and let the process unfold naturally. I'll let you know when I'm ready.

Robyn, I want to say a warm thank you! for your gentle guidance and patience, and for doing this service in the first place.
It was a profound experience and I'm glad you were my guide. :)

[Artst]

Hi, Orr,

I agree it's a good idea to let 'no self' sink in a bit before guiding others. I'm tickled that you're interested in doing it; it's very satisfying.

Your thread will be moved to the archives soon. A great way to be in touch is through Facebook and Facebook Messenger. Will you please send me a friend request? My Facebook page is: https://www.facebook.com/robynartist?ref=bookmarks


Feel free to contact me any time, not just when you are ready to guide. I'd love to hear from you!

Orr, it has been a complete pleasure guiding you. I got a lot out of it so I'm grateful to you as well. :-)

Love,

Robyn

[OneClearSun]

A great way to be in touch is through Facebook and Facebook Messenger. Will you please send me a friend request? My Facebook page is: https://www.facebook.com/robynartist?ref=bookmarks

I've actually deleted my Facebook a while back, I might create a new profile just for he purpose of this group.
If/When I do I'll send you a friend request!

Thanks again for what you do :)

[Artst]

I'll be glad to send you my email address in a private message. I'll do that late tonight - I'm on the run right now!

Love,
Robyn