To be or not to be

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim

In answer to your questions ...

“Is there a separate identity...was there ever?”

No there never has been a separate identity.

“Explain the illusion of a separate self etc ...”

The illusion stems from the belief that a person resides in the body, has an identity which includes such things as name gender age beliefs values religion culture etc to formulate the substance of a person/body. In addition to this, thoughts perceptions sensations are also considered to be essential components which trick the body/mind into believing there is a real identity living inside the body which consists all these attributes. This belief creates the illusion that this body person is separate to others, has their own separate consciousness, and was born and will die along with the body.

“Describe it fully as you see it now.”

There is no identity which lives inside the body. Thoughts and bodily sensations etc create the illusion that they belong to a specific separate entity when in actuality, thoughts perceptions sensations belong to no one individual person. Emotions feelings arise without any attachment to anything permanent. All such experience/ feelings is transient in nature and is a universal phenomena rather than a unique individual expression of the being.

“How does it feel to see this.”

So grateful, so amazed, so special, life affirming.

“ what is the difference from before you started this dialogue?”

- More certainty about questions regarding whether or not I was intellectualising this process
- less hang ups about “forgetting to remember” (haha)
- so glad to have taken a “chance” with LU. I was more pessimistic, now feeling more optimistic or encouraged
- feel clearer
- even less sociable
- content


“What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?”

In general, the detailed examination of thoughts was very helpful - the step by step process. I don’t think there was a last push but rather accumulatively, it all just came together and was satisfied intellectualising was not a concern any longer - so the doubt was removed.
Also, seeing that thought sculptures the form and that thought is just like sand through the fingers, which slips away and becomes the formless.


“Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control”

Since there is no control over the quality quantity nature of thoughts etc and when and how they arise, and since decisions, choices, intentions all stem from thoughts and since there is no chooser to choose or make decisions anyway, making things happen are significantly limited if not impossible.
On the other hand, choice can happen between object a and object b but there is no control over what occurs next or it’s outcome.


“What makes things happen?”

...honestly...no idea.



“What am I responsible for?”

Ultimately nothing - No identity therefore no responsibility...but this is an intellectual response!

Seeing shows that there is no person to take responsibility but there is a huge feeling of discomfort around this answer?

Seeing shows that’s Things just happen as do the 4 seasons but does this mean responsibility just happens too? How is this realistic or possible?

This seems only possible when the rest of the world also wakes up and responsibility is not even a concept ... in the meantime ...there is no clarity?

Some tough questions Tim 🤔

[gondwana]

Beautiful clarity! .Thank you :)

I will show our thread now to the other guides and check if they have any outstanding questions before we complete it.

Be back shortly.

[gondwana]

Seeing shows that there is no person to take responsibility but there is a huge feeling of discomfort around this answer?

Ok I’d like us to take a little closer look at this discomfort first.

What entity is feeling any discomfort?
Does a discomfort over lack of responsibility imply a self to feel out of control?
Or is it only a thought telling there is discomfort?
Is this actually real or just a thought?

Or if you have a different explanation of the discomfort please share more details.

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim

Good to hear from you.
In answer to your inquiry...

There is seeing that -

- thought regarding responsibility has created the feeling ‘discomfort,’
- there is no entity who can claim this responsibility and like every other emotion discomfort just arises
- also responsibility is just a concept anyway
- there is nothing real about this, only more thought arising and momentary ‘forgetting’ occurs... but then of course, there is no one to take responsibility or to have forgotten...IT JUST HAPPENS...

[gondwana]

Hi Katie,

This is great, thank you :)
I’m just checking with the other guides, sorry for the delay.

[gondwana]

Hi Katie,

Could we please clarify your response to Q5.

Firstly:
What exactly is it that is manikin decisions or choosing?
What exactly is it that is making choices between objects?

After answering those, please clarify your overall response to Q5, as it came across a little confusing. Maybe just ignore the complex wording of the original question, just start over and explain how the process of decision/intent/free will functions?

Take your time to lay the process out step by step, and make it crystal clear. Thanks!

[Katiebrown54]

Tim...you ask
"What is it that is making decisions or choosing?"

There is no person making decisions or choosing....decisions and choices which are thoughts, come and go of their on accord. There is no one controlling such thoughts or decisions which are just more thoughts.


"What is it that is making choices between objects?"

There is no person to make a choice between one object and another.


"Clarify your overall response..."

I understand why my previous response to question 5 was confusing last time. You and the other guides picked up a momentary forgetting and confusion in my
actual response. Curiously, I overlooked the fact that there was no one to make a choice over option A or option B. It seems as if I completely 'forgot' this!


Let me try again and explain the process of decision /intent/ free will function ?

Decision
A stream of thoughts arises, relating to the need to make a decision. Another stream of thoughts arises giving the appearance that a decision is chosen by a separate person accordingly.

There is the appearance that a decision(which are only thoughts) are being made but this is an illusion because there is no entity to make a decision nor control over what thoughts come and go and there is no one to direct the thoughts to make choices or decisions. Such a movement of thought labelled "decisions" just happens.

Intent
Intent is non existent since it requires somebody to have it. Activity just occurs but it has no relationship to intention.

Free will
As above, since there is no person to enjoy freewill, freewill is illusory. Furthermore, freewill is hindered by the lack of control over the nature and stream of thoughts.

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim

Although I have not received your reply as yet, I felt the need to write and say I’m not convinced that I gave ‘got It’ yet.

The set of last questions I struggled with and still I am not convinced of my answers.

Also, my responses to life have also been ‘me’ driven lately - whilst ..I am witnessing these responses and am aware of this, i nevertheless don’t feel confident about the readiness of moving through the gateless gate etc. ?

[gondwana]

Well, the Gate is about seeing that there is no self.

You seem to have seen this clearly, and your second explanation of decisioning was much clearer. It was just that you had not provided a fully coherent explanation before, rather than a doubt that you had seen clearly.

I will sit with this a while and be back soon.

[Katiebrown54]

Hi Tim

Perhaps it’s not about seeing that I’m questioning but rather more about feeling no self that I’m struggling with. If suffering with issues is still significant then there must still be the belief that there is still a belief the self exists?

Thank you.

[gondwana]

How do you "feel" something, that does not exist?

What does an absence of something feel like?

In the same way that there is no self present, there is no Santa Claus present right now.
What does "no Santa" feel like?

[Katiebrown54]

It’s the experience of what this life is rather than what a non existent person is not?

It’s the life force, the ongoing connection to this reality which seems to be less present than the thinking suffering entity (although awareness points to its constant presence once attention points to it.

[gondwana]

We have to get real now. Look only at direct experience.

Do not listen again to what thought has to say about "life force" etc...

Where do you find a "life force" in direct experience exactly? Or is this in fact, a thought concept again?

And WHAT entity is suffering, exactly?

As we have already seen:
This thinking suffering entity Does. Not. Exist.
Can something which does not exist, be present?
What exactly is present?

A “thinking suffering entity”?
Or thoughts about a “thinking suffering entity”?

Isn’t there also a clear knowing, a clear awareness of these thoughts?

Aren’t you clearly aware of these thoughts, the same way as you are aware of a sunrise or a bird singing?

[Katiebrown54]

I Clearly see a thinking suffering entity does not exist only as a thought which arises and vaporises until the next.

This entity is not present - only thoughts are present.

Yes there is a clear knowing - a clear awareness of this! Just Thoughts...only thoughts. I do see this...

There has been much space between Our dialogue...?

Flat lining ongoing and difficult...

[gondwana]

I Clearly see a thinking suffering entity does not exist only as a thought which arises and vaporises until the next.

This entity is not present - only thoughts are present.

Yes there is a clear knowing - a clear awareness of this! Just Thoughts...only thoughts. I do see this...

THIS - perfect! This is all we are looking for in The Gate.

There has been much space between Our dialogue...?

Flat lining ongoing and difficult...

This part, I did not understand..haha.
Is it a question?

Otherwise, I propose that we are done here. Unless you feel there is any remaining unclear parts where doubt remains?

If not, I will go back to the other guides to see if they have any final questions.