Ready to dive in...

[Cam-RT]

Remember it's "The Self" (Nothing but thought) that's doing this to make the body respond in this way...

[ixturtle]

Fell off the wagon as a parade of guest came through-- it does seem that the presence of other people seems to magnify, solidify and strengthen this perceived self. At the moment I can barely touch a sense of the illusion-- like I'm further away even then we we started together. Trying to remind myself that it's always there to be seen-- no distance, near or close. Always here.

But I'll repeat from a few days ago: yes, there are multiple "I" stories that are in play and seem to be driving some strong emotional volatility and deep underlying sadness.

[Eloratea]

Is there resistance to what is right now?
Resistance strengthens the illusion of separation.
Feel the feelings, feel the sadness. Everything that appears as experience is allowed and ok. Be kind to it. Don't make problem out of it.
Check is there experiencer or it is just an experience?

[ixturtle]

Thank you-- yes, these are good reminders.

[Derek]

These "I" stories feature a subject that doesn't really exist. "I" is just a word -- not an object in the real world. Keep watching the stories, without believing in them.

You say, "I'm further away even than when we started together."

How can a non-existent subject be far or close to anything? Can the word "I" move around?

[ixturtle]

Keep watching the stories, without believing in them.

Yes-- had a moment yesterday where the attachment to "I" started to soften again. Will keep looking/not believing. And no, a thought can't be far or close to anything, it's just another thought.

[Derek]

Yes, keep watching thoughts that feature the word "I," over and over again, until you see that "I" is just another word.

Do you have any control over the arising of this "I" word and its attachment to thoughts? Do you have any control over which thoughts or desires in particular it sticks to?

Look, and find out!

[ixturtle]

Thank you all-- very helpful. Feels like everything (in particular "I") has been softening again... and no, I don't have any control over how and when this "I" gets particularly sticky... which in one sense is exasperating and in another, is liberating. the difference is subtle, but at least right now, it feels like there's the space to notice them both.

[Eloratea]

it feels like there's the space to notice them both

Feel that space, that spaciousness.
It is there before, during and after the thoughts about "you".
It is there before, during and after the hearing.
It is there before, during and after the seeing.
It is there before, during and after any movement.
It is life itself. Awareness itself.

Is there separation between you and that? Or you and all thoughts mysteriously arise and subside out of it, in it?

[ixturtle]

Just checking in... My posts have dwindled a bit mostly because my brain has ceased asking/trying to figure out, which is a good sign I suppose... In the mean time, life flows with a subtle softening. "I" (a thought) of course would love a sudden clear seeing, but to force the seeing seems to have a backlash. For now, every time I look, I see and am amused by the thought of "I". In answer's to Eloratea's question, yes, there does appear to be separation of me and "that", though of course, that's a thought too. Very grateful to you all, and will continue to post here for as long as I'm welcome.

[Cam-RT]

Hello!

My posts have dwindled a bit mostly because my brain has ceased asking/trying to figure out, which is a good sign I suppose... In the mean time, life flows with a subtle softening.

This is clearly an example of the self lulling one into believeing that they're done...
This is a war...They don't call this liberation for nothing!!...You either see this or you don't.
If not the self undoubtedly will come roaring back...

We need to confirm whether you're finished...personally I don't see this yet.

Let's answer a couple of questions to see where you're at, please feel free to elaborate as much as you see fit...

1)  Is there a 'me' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)   Explain in detail what the illusion of self is, when it starts and how it works.

[ixturtle]

Ha ha ha! I love how different the three of you are... :-)

So I by no means was implying that I was done... just was trying to avoid the "war" but what the hell, if you're asking me to stay front and center here I am.

1) Is there a 'me' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

At the risk of repeating myself, the "me" that still feels visceral and real is generally my physical/emotional body and more specifically a sense of contraction at the chest. At least when I'm alone and quiet, thoughts of "I" have a sense of distance, an obvious fictitious quality to them. But as for the body... I can see that all the thoughts about the body are located in the head, but I really haven't been able to disentangle from a basic "me" lens through which all body sensations, in particular strong emotional/physical ones, are experienced.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion of self is a fabrication of the mind which projects a stable continuous identity-- both experiencer and decision maker-- onto the experience of a unique (but non-static, interconnected, constant flux) body & mind. The body is real, the mind is real, even the mind's thoughts are real in the sense that they happen, but the content of the mind's thoughts are not "real", in particular the central all consuming thought of "I". The consequence of this projection is that the "I" distinguishes itself from (and prioritizes itself relative to) everything else arising in its field of awareness, which leads to a constant effort to manage and control "I" vs. everything else. This is an exhausting enterprise for both mind & body because in fact, the "I" that thinks it can manage and control does not exist. Moreover, mind and body interact to intensify the ruse-- body has sensation, mind gives it a label, body intensifies sensation, mind freaks out.

I remember reading somewhere that there is a part of the brain that develops as a tot that is responsible for this nonsense, so I suppose that's when it starts. Up until then, the infant is just experiencing life and responding based on conditioning. Once in place though, the mind's belief in "I" seeks constant confirmation of its existence and builds a fortress of corollary beliefs to keep it in place.

I suppose this is about taking off armor, rather than putting it on, but in any case, I will do my best to be battle ready!

Love,
ix

[Cam-RT]

Goodevening...

As long as your keeping this in mind throughout your day, along with looking and inquiring when time allows you're fine.
It's far simpler than you're imagining, so don't let frustration keep you from this goal...

the "me" that still feels visceral and real is generally my physical/emotional body and more specifically a sense of contraction at the chest.

The body/ feelings point the way (along with us ;^) toward the thoughts connecting "the self" but keep in mind, Thoughts are empty projections of "The Self"...Their objective is to "Occupy" us not to defeat us...

I really haven't been able to disentangle from a basic "me" lens through which all body sensations, in particular strong emotional/physical ones, are experienced.

This has nothing to do with lenses, all these thoughts are distracting you from looking behind and seeing the truth...
Where are all these thoughts coming from??<<<<that's what you're looking at...

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of self is, when it starts and how it works.

It does appear that for the most part that you understanding the underlying dysfunction...it's just seeing and realizing that this is a physical/mental connection to a non-exstent self, is the last obstical to see things the way they REALLY are...
No thinker just thought...No liver, just life!

This is an exhausting enterprise for both mind & body because in fact, the "I" that thinks it can manage and control does not exist.

Excellent response!! It's emotionally exausting to mentally keep up with feeding a construct that doesn't exist...
So what is "IT" that's behind all these thoughts popping up??

[Derek]

the "me" that still feels visceral and real is generally my physical/emotional body and more specifically a sense of contraction at the chest. At least when I'm alone and quiet, thoughts of "I" have a sense of distance, an obvious fictitious quality to them. But as for the body... I can see that all the thoughts about the body are located in the head, but I really haven't been able to disentangle from a basic "me" lens through which all body sensations, in particular strong emotional/physical ones, are experienced.

What is the connection between the word "me" and the contraction in the chest? Isn't "me" just a label produced by the mind, and the contraction in the chest is something else?

And what is the connection between "my" and the body? Does the body come with a word attached to it?

[ixturtle]

Where are all these thoughts coming from??<<<<that's what you're looking at... So what is "IT" that's behind all these thoughts popping up??

Just mind? Just energy? Just life? For some reason this question elicits fear...

what is the connection between "my" and the body? Does the body come with a word attached to it?

The only real connection is the one the mind imposes. Body doesn't come with words attached, it just is. Nevertheless, body feels low, tight, anxious-- that's the mind's assessment anyway, along with, "you're losing the battle."