Selfless Living?

[emptyself]

Could you elaborate on what makes it "obvious"?


When you notice your feet stepping on a stone and then you notice a bird chirp,
can you say that a bird chirping is the consequence of your stepping on a stone?

Your example seems quite different. If I step on a stone I will not always hear (or usually) hear a bird chirp.

Yet, if I imagine sucking a lemon I always salivate. If I imagine my beach scene I get the same warm feelings of relaxation.

So it is obvious because I have learned that I can create certain effects through my thoughts. I also know in a similar way that even thoughts that are spontaneously there lead to similar results. This is surely what learning is - we intelligently get to know how the world works through our experience and observation.

[Bananafish]

if I imagine sucking a lemon I always salivate. If I imagine my beach scene I get the same warm feelings of relaxation.

What are you referring to when you say this? Memories?

If they are memories, is it fair to say that the same two memories are recurring in the same
sequence, again and again?

[emptyself]

What are you referring to when you say this? Memories?

If they are memories, is it fair to say that the same two memories are recurring in the same
sequence, again and again?

Yes, I can only talk past experience using memory.

Am I replaying the same memories over and over (sounds like a computer programme generated reality)?

If I take driving my car as an example. I know if I intend to drive I need to press the accelerator. I know that my intention to drive and pressing of the accelerator etc causes the car to move.(thought effecting body and behaviour) Cause and effect. I have thousands of memories of the same thing happening. So this does not seem like my mind just drawing upon single memories and repeating them.

[emptyself]

By the way, despite me still not getting this, I can feel a background understanding preparing itself to emerge.

Instead of yesterday's sense of confusion, I have a wonderful sense of wellbeing and peace of mind

[Bananafish]

I know if I intend to drive I need to press the accelerator. I know that my intention to drive and pressing of the accelerator etc causes the car to move.(thought effecting body and behaviour

Ah! I see this is a very good point to investigate.

Can you try raising one of your arms now?

[Bananafish]

By the way, despite me still not getting this, I can feel a background understanding preparing itself to emerge.

Instead of yesterday's sense of confusion, I have a wonderful sense of wellbeing and peace of mind

Wow! Great to hear that. :) Trust that sense. Somehow, life itself already knows what's true and
what's false.

"For the time is coming when everything that is covered will be revealed, and all that is secret will be made known to all."


It also helps to ask this to yourself:

"If there was no link between thought and sensation, how would you feel?"

[emptyself]

Ah! I see this is a very good point to investigate.

Can you try raising one of your arms now?

I have done this exercise many times, and because I could not find a self doing it, it felt as if it was just happening.

But now, we seem to have complicated this. I can not find a self, but I can find intention. I raise an arm because there is an intention to raise it - triggered by you asking me to raise it. Maybe I was thinking I can not find a self but actually intention is the self in action.

It also helps to ask this to yourself:

"If there was no link between thought and sensation, how would you feel?"

My mind would be blown away because it would contradict everything I have ever believed about life. It would mean i have no control over anything - it really would mean life is just happening to me - I am not driving the bus - merely a passenger. There might also be relief because I can completely stop efforting and just go with the journey.

[Bananafish]

I can find intention. I raise an arm because there is an intention to raise it

How is "intention" experienced? Sense? Thought? Images? Or ...?

[emptyself]

How is "intention" experienced? Sense? Thought? Images? Or ...?

it is more like a sense than a thought. The best word would be an impulse that is followed by thoughts

[Bananafish]

What kind of sense is it?
can you describe it further?

[Bananafish]

How is that "impulse" felt?

[emptyself]

What kind of sense is it?
can you describe it further?


How is that "impulse" felt?

I have been trying to watch this all day. I actually can not separate it from thought.

And I know that thoughts are just happening. (if they aren't I must be crazy! LOL )

In some ways I feel as if I am right back to the beginning of this inquiry - my stuckness was about whether we make choices.

I am still dealing with the same thing, though I feel I have gone way deeper and am close to resolving this.

This morning I just sat and watched my thoughts and intentions. The action of watching slowed down the thoughts and there were times when there were no thoughts. There was no sense of self at that time (not that I felt i didn't exist) - but it made me realise how linked the sense of self and thoughts are.

It still feels and looks to me as if thoughts are causative. And therefore it still feels as if someone is making choices - though I am really beginning to doubt the reality of it.

There is another level where it feels as if the "illusion" is falling apart. When you mentioned the Kanizsa Triangle the other day I could not possibly see how thoughts and bodily sensations could in any way be illusory. Now I have a sense that that is true, but can not make logical sense of it or see how the "trick" is done.

Of course, I know that logic is not going to take me there. The sensing is more important. Right now I feeler closer to truth than ever.

[Bananafish]

Hi! Glad that something is dawning on you. I certainly see a change in the tone of what you're writing.

I advice you to stay with this inquiry for a while and watch what happens. Apply it to your everyday life. Please send me a daily report on it.

[emptyself]

I advice you to stay with this inquiry for a while and watch what happens. Apply it to your everyday life. Please send me a daily report on it.

I woke up in the middle of the night and for a brief minute the non existence of self was seen absolutely clearly. It faded just as quickly as it arrived.

Today I was back to trying to watch choices being made, wondering about preferences and still considering the "thinking being a cause" conundrum.

Of course, I can not find a self doing any of those things, but they still feel very much as if they are being done by a self.

I will continue to "look".

[Bananafish]

they still feel very much as if they are being done by a self.

Stick to that feeling and see what is there.
Please keep reporting.