Looking for a guide

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

Take an apple (or any other object) and LOOK if there is an EXISTENCE of this object outside the inseparable sensations!
Now hide the apple under a cushion (or in a cupboard). Does it still EXIST?

I'm sorry, I didn't want to overstrain or confuse you. What I wanted to show with this example is that the existence of things we can't see right now is a question of definition or labeling by the mind. Of course it is a fact that the apple is still there if you remove the cushion, but this could also be considered as a "wonder"! When you can't see it you don't really KNOW that it is there, it is just a common definition... But maybe I wandered off the point... Just wanted to make a comparison to the “me”-belief: you can't see it, feel it, smell it, but you assume that it is there. The assumption that says "the apple is there" (although you can't see it right now) is the same kind of a very suble thought-pattern that makes you believe in a "me" (although you can't see it). We have been trained to believe in things that are obviously not there...

No, there are not two me's. There is nevertheless a sense of continuity. I want to say that the memory is part of a "my" past, a changing self, but I know that my under the definition is not real now. But it happened.

If you read a book with a first-person-narrator, you totally immerse in the story, you see, feel and experience as the main character. You become the main actor. You are happy as this person and you suffer as this person.

So how is it possible that this “me” changes from one moment to the next from “Val” to let's say “Robinson Crusoe”?

While you're “in” the story – where is “Val”? Is he still there? Or is it rather like this: after having put the book away (or sometimes in between if the doorbell rings for example), a memory, a thought(!) appears and says “Val is here. I am Val. I have been here all the time.”? But is this true?

Or is there just one moment – now - where all this appears? In one case with the assumption (the thought) to be “Val”, in the other with the assumption (the thought) to be “Robinson Crusoe”? But is one thought "true" and the other is not?

What is this “I”/”me” if it is not permanent? Is there something permanent? What is it?

Love,
Luke

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

you didn't reply for quite a long time... Were my last questions too much of a good thing??

Is there fear showing up again? If yes, please remember what we said in the beginning:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... 79#p226879

It would be very useful if we came back to posting (at least) every second day.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Love,
Luke

PS: If frustration is there that "you don't get anywhere with this", don't worry about that. Just welcome it. Of course "you" don't get anywhere. And the "you" does not like to begin to realize this ;-)

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

I am very sorry for my radio silence.
A combination of factors, first internet not working and then fear coming up big time. The deeper this process goes, the more it unearths and since I got the connection back I postponed looking at your post, telling myself "I didn't have the time", but really for fear of "what next?!". Thoughts make wonderful stories and make things bigger than they actually are, till they are so huge, it's easier to look the other way. But I didn't want to disappear - I re-connected, read your kind posts, and puff, the big bubble of fear burst. So sorry once again. I know that I am supposed to connect every day or so, so please let me know if you are still happy to continue being my guide, and I'd understand either way.
To answer your questions, the analogy of the first person narrator in the book with the "me" struck a cord. Yes, that's exactly how it feels! What has come up (hence the fear), is that as the "me" feels less real, there's a sense of "what next?" or "then who is this if not me?". And also a, "if there's no me, there's also no goal to achieve, no direction". That's it, it feels like loosing a sense of direction for the future - there is no future in a sense. All this is destabilising....
I hope this makes sense, and my deepest apologies for taking so long to take the courage to come back.

Love,

Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

I hope this makes sense, and my deepest apologies for taking so long to take the courage to come back.

don't worry, yes it makes sense. It was totally okay to take a break (although it would have been nice to drop a line so that I didn't have to look every day), and in a way I also needed a break. Since I have no other person to guide at the moment I didn't log in here for a longer time either and so I saw only now that you've replied. Sorry. So everything is fine! It's good that you are back in the game :-)

I re-connected, read your kind posts, and puff, the big bubble of fear burst.

Yes, basically fear is just a big bubble! Thoughts make such a big thing out of it. But it is just a feeling that wants to be felt - and then in most instances it disappears...

What has come up (hence the fear), is that as the "me" feels less real, there's a sense of "what next?" or "then who is this if not me?"

It's good that something opens up... I give the question back to you: "Then who is this if not me?" But don't look for a "who" because there is no "who", just say the word "I" and wait what comes up...

Does it refer to anything?
Use the word as a pointer: "I" - Does it point to anything?

Do it again and again - and see where it leads you...

Love,
Luke

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

Thanks for your kind reply! I am sorry again for not telling you.

But don't look for a "who" because there is no "who", just say the word "I" and wait what comes up...

If I say the word 'I', it reinforces the experience of a solid self. When I look into it e.g. where is this 'I' that feels so real?, of course then it's nowhere to be found, but the thought that comes up is almost a compromise...it says "well, of course there's no solid 'I', as in a fixed entity, a soul etc. but there's an I nevertheless. I change with time, but it's always me". The only thing at the moment that cracks this is if I read old diaries or look at photos from when I was really young. Then it's another person. But anything else (e.g. photos from 5 years ago, say), reinforces the idea of a changing "I", like a continuous thread.

I know I have raised this before, but it seems to be a sticky point for me!
Love,
Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

The only thing at the moment that cracks this is if I read old diaries or look at photos from when I was really young.

There is no thing that needs to be "cracked". This thought is just an assertion. It is not true that's all.

...it says "well, of course there's no solid 'I', as in a fixed entity, a soul etc. but there's an I nevertheless. I change with time, but it's always me".

The thought should be able to prove its assertion with facts... If I told you "By the way, there's a blue elephant standing behind you", will you believe it?! Of course not, you will turn round and LOOK. And when you find no elephant behind you, you will KNOW that this was just a try to fool you. Now please do the same with the claim, that "there is nevertheless an I". Where is it? LOOK!

Love,
Luke

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

I looked. 'I' is a constant thought with which 'I' (excuse the pun!) identify with. It seems simple, too simple in a way, but it rings true. So I have lots of thoughts which are repetitive, and 'I' is the one that comes most often and that stays the longest. The problem is the identification. How to dis-intify with it?

That's how it feels anyway!

Love,

Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

The problem is the identification. How to dis-intify with it?

no dis-identification is necessary, because there is no-one there who could identify. But I know this is not helpful if it FEELS as if someone is identified. So if it is clear that you are not the "I"-thoughts, and it still feels like being identified, then there must be a more subtle "I"-thought in the background. So again please look:

Is there an observer behind the "I"-thoughts?
Is there another I that experiences the "I"-thoughts?
What is the background against which the "I"-thoughts appear?

"Happy" discoveries... :-)

Love,
Luke

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

I feel that we're getting nowhere at the moment. My suggestion would be that I ask the other guides if someone wants to take over... It is also that I am not guiding for long and that (although I feel that I ask the right questions) due to this lack of experience maybe I do not always see clear enough where to look next. I am planning to ask for a guide myself to look deeper in the subject of "control / being in charge" for I found out that there is still some confusion to be cleared out.

If you agree with this course of action I would ask the other guides.

Last but not least I want to say that it has been a pleasure to work with you! I highly appreciated your openness and your patience. Keep your unrestrained will to go on and find it out!

Love,
Luke

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke

I see now that you hadn't received my reply to your earlier questions. Let me reply to those here again, but yes, I am taking your advice on this and I am happy to explore further guidance from other guides if you think it's best. I'd like to say the same, that it's been a really pleasure to be guided by you, your kindness and patience have been very much appreciated.

Is there an observer behind the "I"-thoughts?
Is there another I that experiences the "I"-thoughts?

It doesn't feel like there's an observer behind them, I guess what I meant about dis-identifying, is that the "I" seems to be an almost constant thought. Hence, it can easily become solidified and be made into an entity. It's like the difference between "I'm angry" to "there's anger", or even "there's some physical sensations which are codified as anger".
So the answer to both of your questions is that there isn't and I experiencing I thoughts, it's just one coin so to speak.

What is the background against which the "I"-thoughts appear?

This I wasn't clear about. Could you please explain what you meant by background?

As I said at the beginning, happy with the course of action you see best fit, I know it comes from trying to help me see through!

Love,

Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

there is another guide who could take over. Is it okay for you to start from scratch?

Love,
Luke

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Luke,

Yes, that's fine by me. Thanks again for all your help Luke and good luck with your own investigations!

Love,

Val

[Lucas369]

Hi Val,

perfect. Then I will inform the other guide. She will answer you here.

So I hope to see you "on the other side" soon :-) If you'll decide to join the LU-facebook-groups after the gate: My fb-name is Luke Sunrise.

Good Luck!
Love,
Luke

[forgetmenot]

Hello Val,

My name is Kay...I guide differently to Luke, that is the reason I like to go back to scratch, as I guide to a structure. We will more than likely criss cross with what you have covered with Luke already, but is doesn't hurt to have a double whammy of looking! :)

First, we look at what looking is and to do that we have to become aware of what actual experience (AE) is. However, before delving into that, I would like to know what your expectations are from having this exploration. So if you could answer the following questions for me that would be great. Throughout the exploration, whatever I have written in blue text, is what I would like an answer to.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

With love, Kay

[elliphantmoo]

Hi Kay,

Nice meeting you!I'll delve right into the answers....

How will life change?

I will feel less fearful and so will enjoy life more.

How will you change?

Feeling less fearful and at the same time more alive.

What will be different?

I will be less tied into future thinking.

What is missing?

I guess the feeling of being at ease with the world.

Looking forward to be guided by you.

Love,

Val