Azirahael's Thread

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,

Sure, i can look, and not find it inside.

Yes! Great! Good looking!

Whether the self is real or not, it does indeed feel like there is one.

Does it really feel as though you have one, or is this just a thought, you tell me?

The subconscious drives that manifest in consciousness, the thoughts that appear, the actions taken.
That is the self.

From looking, let's keep on looking, does this seem like what you can feel or is this just another thought program. I'm not saying to delete thoughts , but is there a thinker behind the thought.
The thinker of thought is a thought about a thinker, but there is no thinker of thought.
Haven't a clue who wrote this but laughed when I read it .

Somewhere there is some pert of you that chose your favourite colour, or set you up to prefer chocolate to strawberry.

We've covered this, there's no chooser. It's all part of the flow.
Do you feel like life is a storm? Tell Sam Harris next time there is a thunder storm he should take cover and watch it blow over. Seriously, I am not here to debate with you, but if you are here perhaps Sam isn't offering a way of sensing not self.
I have no idea who he is. It is possible to feel stillness and calm during the storm, especially if the storm is an imagined one.

What I am asking you is whether not there is a separate self? From the heart, not from thought, from looking, is there really an assemblage of parts? In life's presence is anything separate, if so how could that be possible?

[Azirahael]

It actually does feel like there's an 'I'.
Not a thought about it, an actual feeling or impression of one.
That doesn't change the fact of the non-existence of one, but the feeling is still there.

Same as a phantom limb.
The limb is clearly and factually gone.
But many people still feel it. Because the support system is still in place for it.

"We've covered this, there's no chooser. It's all part of the flow." Incorrect. There is a chooser. It's simply a subconscious one.
Somewhere buried in your subconscious is a set of drives or even possibly memories with emotional attachments that cause you to prefer one flavour or colour over another.
The fact that you are not conscious of it, changes nothing about its existence.


Sam Harris, Storm: What he is saying is that our identities are metastable. Like the great red spot on jupiter, or an actual storm on earth, the system gains new material and loses old material constantly. And yet the identity remains.

Every year, you replace 98% of the atoms in your body, and yet, you are still functionally 'you.'

The same with consciousness.
There is no 'you' hidden inside the storm of thoughts, feelings and drives. You are not controlling that storm. The only 'you' to be found anywhere IS the storm.


"What I am asking you is whether not there is a separate self? From the heart, not from thought, from looking, is there really an assemblage of parts? In life's presence is anything separate, if so how could that be possible?"

While the woowoo merchants of the world have co-opted the language to talk about these experiences, rendering us down to sounding like them to outsiders, you seem to be veering ever closer to actual woowoo here.

The heart pumps blood. It feels next to nothing, and does no thinking. Say what you really mean.
Separate self? Separate from what? from who?

"is there really an assemblage of parts?" yes. Both physical and mental. body parts make up the physical side of 'me' and mental components contained in the brain such as thoughts, desires and subconscious drives make up the mental parts.

"In life's presence is anything separate, if so how could that be possible?" of course. You are not me. You are seperate from me.
Your atoms are not my atoms.
And you occupy a separate physical location.

Again, you seem to be driving for something, and i don't know what it is.
Be more clear please.

Maybe tell me what you want me to discover, and how to get there,

[ilazmit]

Hello Azirahael,

Maybe tell me what you want me to discover, and how to get there,

Basically what this inquiry is about is realizing that there is no separate self. Your thoughts are not who you are, they are just thoughts, and the way to get there is looking. I can't tell you how to get there you need to experience it yourself, because this is your experience. I can only offer pointers.

It actually does feel like there's an 'I'.
Not a thought about it, an actual feeling or impression of one.
That doesn't change the fact of the non-existence of one, but the feeling is still there.

Throughout the day are you always aware of an "I". a character, a thought construct? Or do you at times lose yourself?

"We've covered this, there's no chooser. It's all part of the flow." Incorrect. There is a chooser. It's simply a subconscious one.
Somewhere buried in your subconscious is a set of drives or even possibly memories with emotional attachments that cause you to prefer one flavour or colour over another.
The fact that you are not conscious of it, changes nothing about its existence.

Are you saying that there is a separate subconscious being deciding things.

There is no 'you' hidden inside the storm of thoughts, feelings and drives. You are not controlling that storm. The only 'you' to be found anywhere IS the storm.

I'd agree with the first two sentences, but I don't agree that you are the storm. You can be aware of the storm and calmly watch it pass much like observing clouds pass by in the sky, especially if you are aware that you are not the thought storm.
That's all there is to it. Goodnight
Sandra

[Azirahael]

Then we're done.
Because i came into this knowing that already.
I was hoping for more.

"Basically what this inquiry is about is realising that there is no separate self." Separate from what?

"Are you saying that there is a separate subconscious being deciding things. " ditto. separate from what?
IF you mean 'separate from the consciousness,' then yes.
Otherwise, no. because however little we control the subconscious, it is part of us.

"You can be aware of the storm and calmly watch it pass much like observing clouds pass by in the sky, especially if you are aware that you are not the thought storm." and this is called 'self awareness.'
And it does not stop us being the storm.
Any more than the ability to look down and see our hands stops us from existing.

There is nothing more to us, than the storm.

[ilazmit]

To be a chooser , suggests a separate entity. Look , Nothing is separate. No choice. What does that mean to you?

[Azirahael]

To be a chooser , suggests a separate entity. Look , Nothing is separate. No choice. What does that mean to you?

It sounds awfully like woowoo.

Please clarify your terms.
Nothing is separate? from what? I am very definitely separate from you on a stack of different levels.

Separate entity? Not necessarily. Because i can have subconscious drives and motivations, that come from my brain.
And are not under my control.
And yet, it's my brain they are coming from, nowhere else.

No choice? Depends almost entirely on context.
But a rough description could be 'Choice: the ability to select one of several options. Freedom of choice: the freedom to do so.'
And no choice: lacking both those abilities.

Seriously, i think we've lost the thread here, and instead of explaining more, you appear to be retreating into explaining less.
I'm getting no sense of direction here.

[ilazmit]

Separate entity? Not necessarily. Because i can have subconscious drives and motivations, that come from my brain.
And are not under my control.
And yet, it's my brain they are coming from, nowhere else.

Really? What about the sun , air, gravity, to name a few of the infinite variables that influence experience?


'Choice: the ability to select one of several options. Freedom of choice: the freedom to do so.'
And no choice: lacking both those abilities.

If there is no distinct self, which you did agree on, who is deciding something, or is it just programming for lack of a better word,
You and you alone are your experience. Any thing that tells you otherwise is just a thought.

[Azirahael]

"Really? What about the sun , air, gravity, to name a few of the infinite variables that influence experience?"

Sure. But their specific influences on me are controlled by whatever goes on in my subconscious.

"If there is no distinct self, which you did agree on, who is deciding something, or is it just programming for lack of a better word,"
Why must it be a 'who?'
And are not those subconscious drives 'me?'
If not me, then who?

"You and you alone are your experience." So you DO recognise that there is a 'you.'
It's just a matter of terminology.
There may not be a 'me' hiding in my head. But there is a 'me.'
'Me' is the whole.

I am the storm.

[ilazmit]

"Really? What about the sun , air, gravity, to name a few of the infinite variables that influence experience?"

Sure. But their specific influences on me are controlled by whatever goes on in my subconscious.

Really? Could you explain this to me, I really don't know what you are talking about?

"If there is no distinct self, which you did agree on, who is deciding something, or is it just programming for lack of a better word,"
Why must it be a 'who?'
And are not those subconscious drives 'me?'
If not me, then who?

Tfhe question was rhetorical. I was asking whether or not choice was evident.

"You and you alone are your experience." So you DO recognise that there is a 'you.'
It's just a matter of terminology.
There may not be a 'me' hiding in my head. But there is a 'me.'
'Me' is the whole.

Wild , something we actually agree on! Except for the use of the word whole. Whole suggests a container. why can't you be transitory? Why can't you be experience?

Why does it have to be a storm. Storms can get extremely tedious. Why not give it another label : universe , love , Goddess, stillness, whatever.

[Azirahael]

"Really? Could you explain this to me, I really don't know what you are talking about?"
The sun shines on us all. Gravity affects us all. And the rain.
And yet, the rain makes me happy, and another sad.
Why?
What is in our subconscious.

"Whole suggests a container. why can't you be transitory? Why can't you be experience?" A: because i have a container. The physical is bounded by my skin. The mental is bounded by my experience.

"why can't you be transitory? Why can't you be experience?" I am.

"Why does it have to be a storm. Storms can get extremely tedious. Why not give it another label : universe , love , Goddess, stillness, whatever."
Because love, universe and goddess are bullshit woowoo terms. that are irrelevant to this discussion, and i am the one talking.
So we are using my terms.

And the reason it is relevant is multi-fold:
Firstly because the Storm is meta-stable. Like the great Red Spot, or a soliton wave, matter is constantly being added and lost, and yet the structure remains. Goddess is not useful in this regard.
Secondly, because storms are uncontrollable, and people can get lost or overwhelmed in them.
It's a better metaphor.

[Azirahael]

Also, i get to say "I am the Storm." In a meaningful conversation :P

[ilazmit]

Also, i get to say "I am the Storm." In a meaningful conversation :P

There is no meaning, just experience. No self.

Why are you here if Sam Harris has all the answers for you?

I am.

Yes!

[Azirahael]

Why am i here? I was hoping you had something useful to say.

Not really seeing it.
I am getting the strongest point that your contribution could be replaced by a chat-bot loaded with deepities.

Bye.

[ilazmit]

Azirahael,

You need a more experienced guide, to address your inquiry. This is new to me. They will most probably be clearer about all this. I will put in a request for another guide. Best of luck, it has been an interesting and informative experience for me.
Sandra

[Sarah7]

Hi
I’m Sarah and I’d be happy to speak with you.
Can I ask you in your own words, and in as much detail as needed to explain, answer the following. And please in your own words. Not non dual, or what you think I want to hear. I’m not trying to be rude, but it’s important to see where you are. Ok! ;)

What brought you here?
What are you looking for?
What is not happening that you believe, think should be?
What do you want?
Looking forward to chatting with you
Hugs Sarah xxx