Getting to the heart of things

[forgetmenot]

Hello Todd,

Since you are not the thinker/owner of thought, are 'you' responsible for what happens?

I'm responsible for my actions. I'm not responsible for the thoughts.

I suggest you ponder the question a little more, because you just answered from thinking without looking.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I choose my actions.

If you cannot choose what you are aware of, including thoughts, then what else can you choose?

Can you choose what smell appears? Can you choose what taste appears? Can you choose what sensations appear? Can you choose what thoughts appear? Can you choose what colours appear?

Where in smell, taste, sensation, thought and colour is there a you?
What is the AE of actions?

Please look at these questions carefully.

With love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Since you are not the thinker/owner of thought, are 'you' responsible for what happens?

I'm responsible for my actions. I'm not responsible for the thoughts.

I suggest you ponder the question a little more, because you just answered from thinking without looking.

It can't be that easy. Since everything is direct experience of senses or thoughts and the thoughts just come...it would seem that everything is included. No 'I' can be found. It appears that we are just vessels, acting out thoughts we don't create. If true then wouldn't someone in court blurt out, "I didn't rob the bank, I was just the conduit for the idea of robbing the bank!"

If you cannot choose what you are aware of, including thoughts, then what else can you choose?

It appears that I choose nothing. However, it seems that something is missing. I don't completely buy the idea that we are just vessels carrying out thoughts that we don't create. The decision to eat pizza today for lunch was made somewhere, unless all of the environmental factors (cells, previous diet, brain chemistry, etc) coalesced into, "eat pizza'.

Can you choose what smell appears? Can you choose what taste appears? Can you choose what sensations appear? Can you choose what thoughts appear? Can you choose what colours appear?

Same answer for all of these questions, no.

Where in smell, taste, sensation, thought and colour is there a you?

There isn't a me in smell, taste, sensation, thought, or colour. All of those are actually experienced.

What is the AE of actions?

The AE of actions is just actual experience of the senses and thoughts. The actual experience of holding a pen (AE of action) would be the actual experience of feeling the pen in my hand.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Since you are not the thinker/owner of thought, what are 'you' responsible for happens?t
I'm responsible for my actions. I'm not responsible for the thoughts.

I suggest you ponder the question a little more, because you just answered from thinking without looking

It can't be that easy. Since everything is direct experience of senses or thoughts and the thoughts just come...it would seem that everything is included. No 'I' can be found. It appears that we are just vessels, acting out thoughts we don't create. If true then wouldn't someone in court blurt out, "I didn't rob the bank, I was just the conduit for the idea of robbing the bank!"

It is only thought that says “it can’t be that easy”! And 'you' are aware of that thought, just as 'you' are aware of sound, sensation, taste, smell and colour. This will become clearer as we move along in the exploration.

If there is no separate self labelled “Todd” then why would there be other separate selves who are in control of their own thoughts and actions? Just because he blurts that out in court, doesn’t mean anything...have a LOOK and see what the AE of the other actually is!

In the dream it doesn't matter what he blurts out! In the dream, which is just like a movie, a seeming character robs a bank, the consequences of doing that play out...he goes to jail! A seeming character is caught speeding...he gets a ticket. However, there is no one IN these characters! These characters are no more real than Batman and Robin!

If you cannot choose what you are aware of, including thoughts, then what else can you choose?

It appears that I choose nothing. However, it seems that something is missing. I don't completely buy the idea that we are just vessels carrying out thoughts that we don't create. The decision to eat pizza today for lunch was made somewhere, unless all of the environmental factors (cells, previous diet, brain chemistry, etc) coalesced into, "eat pizza'.

There are two assumptions here. First off that there is a you who is a separate self, and that you reside in a vessel!

Place two similar objects on a table and quickly grab one of them. Find the exact point where the decision was made which one to grab.

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

What is the AE of actions?

The AE of actions is just actual experience of the senses and thoughts. The actual experience of holding a pen (AE of action) would be the actual experience of feeling the pen in my hand.

Did you continue to break down activities into AE like I asked, because you are showing once again that you are not clear about AE?

The actual experience of “feeling the pen in my hand” is the AE of thought and NOT the AE of actually feeling a pen in my hand.

Pick up a pen and hold it in your hand. Now close the eyes and IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of pen and hand….and what is the actual experience?

The AE of actions is thought. It is simply a thought that points to sensation, colour, sound and says that those are a body which a person resides in and is doing actions. Sensation is AE of sensation, colour is AE of colour and sound is AE of sound, and thought is AE of thought, they are not the AE of a body.
Can you see this?


We will be looking at the body later on, so don't get hung up on that, but look carefully at what I am pointing at about actual experience.

With love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

When I opened my eyes my finger was pointing off to the right of my head, not at any point on my person. I thought I was pointing at my head when I my eyes were closed.

Pick up a pen and hold it in your hand. Now close the eyes and IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of pen and hand….and what is the actual experience?

The actual experience is pressure on my fingers.

The AE of actions is thought. It is simply a thought that points to sensation, colour, sound and says that those are a body which a person resides in and is doing actions. Sensation is AE of sensation, colour is AE of colour and sound is AE of sound, and thought is AE of thought, they are not the AE of a body.
Can you see this?

I understand the actual experience part of all of this. It seems we've cut away everything except direct experience of senses and thoughts. Since the content of thoughts is nothing...we just have our senses and whatever thoughts about nothing come up.

That still doesn't explain why I wanted pizza today for lunch. The thought to eat pizza had to come from somewhere. Where do thoughts come from and how are they generated?

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hi Todd,

I would like for you to really read my posts and exercises thoroughly before answering please.

Thought says that the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths and locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

When I opened my eyes my finger was pointing off to the right of my head, not at any point on my person. I thought I was pointing at my head when I my eyes were closed.

Many point at their head as this is believed where thinking takes place. So there is an idea that an “I” resides in the head.

Try this to examine the solidity of the head.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?


Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

Further, it is generally believed that thoughts are coming from the head. When we try to trace back the origin of a thought, it is often believed that it's coming from the forehead, because the attention automatically goes to the sensation of the forehead. Investigate this carefully as often as you can throughout the day.

What is the forehead in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image (of a forehead), right?

So, can a thought come from a sensation?
Can a thought come from a mental image?

Have a very deep look here... the forehead is one of the 'residence' of the SENSE of self. Or rather say, the sensation that is labelled as forehead is believed to be one of the location of the sense of self.

Pick up a pen and hold it in your hand. Now close the eyes and IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of pen and hand….and what is the actual experience?

The actual experience is pressure on my fingers.

Where in sound, colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation does “pressure on my fingers” sit?

I asked you to ignore all thought and all mental images of a hand, this included the fingers, since they are part of the hand.
So if you look at actual experience of "pen held in hand" again, what is actually appearing?

The AE of actions is thought. It is simply a thought that points to sensation, colour, sound and says that those are a body which a person resides in and is doing actions. Sensation is AE of sensation, colour is AE of colour and sound is AE of sound, and thought is AE of thought, they are not the AE of a body.
Can you see this?

I understand the actual experience part of all of this. It seems we've cut away everything except direct experience of senses and thoughts. Since the content of thoughts is nothing...we just have our senses and whatever thoughts about nothing come up.

In my introductory post, I informed you that this investigation is based on actual experience…so yes, all we look at is actual experience. Because it is via actual experience you actually see what is, as opposed to what thought says is appearing.

This exploration is about seeing there being no separate self. So where is this self that has senses and thoughts? Describe this self to me in precise detail and describe where it is located.

That still doesn't explain why I wanted pizza today for lunch. The thought to eat pizza had to come from somewhere. Where do thoughts come from and how are they generated?

You tell me! Sit for 15 minutes quietly somewhere and just observe thought. them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all. Now you tell me if you can find where they come from and what generates them.

THIS/experience is appearing as thought, just as it seemingly appears as colour, smell, taste, sensation and sound. Sound, thought, sensation, smell etc, are not appearing as experience. There would need to be someone/something that is experiencing experience for the latter to be the case.

With love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

I just experience the pressure. There's no story about a head unless I'm thinking about what I'm pushing on.

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?

There's no head because that is a thought about something. That something, the head, exists only in thought. The finger generates pressure, I feel the pressure.

And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

If I'm thinking about what is between the pressure points then it is a thought. What the thought is about exists only in thought and is not actually experience through the senses other than the thought experiencing the idea of a something between the pressure points.

What is the forehead in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image (of a forehead), right?

The forehead is a thought about something, the mental image. The sensation comes from touching the forehead. The sensation would be feeling pressure from touching or an image from looking however, it does not comprise a 'forehead'. A forehead only exists in thought.

So, can a thought come from a sensation?

No. A sensation is actual experience of feeling something. A thought...just comes.

Can a thought come from a mental image?

This isn't clear, you mean a mental image arising from actual experiencing something from sight by using the eyes?

Where in sound, colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation does “pressure on my fingers” sit?

It doesn't sit with any of those. "Pressure on my fingers" is a thought.

So if you look at actual experience of "pen held in hand" again, what is actually appearing?

The actual experience of "pen held in hand" is a thought about me holding a pen in hand.

This exploration is about seeing there being no separate self. So where is this self that has senses and thoughts? Describe this self to me in precise detail and describe where it is located.

That would be all thoughts. I can't describe it in precise detail or where it is located because it's just more thoughts. The self can not be experienced through the actual experience of the senses.

You tell me! Sit for 15 minutes quietly somewhere and just observe thought. them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all. Now you tell me if you can find where they come from and what generates them.

I can't. Any attempt at determining a source is a thought. It's all just a story.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Thank you for being diligent in looking, it becomes easier the more you do it and the further we go on with this exploration.

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
I just experience the pressure. There's no story about a head unless I'm thinking about what I'm pushing on.

So, in actual experience the ‘head’ is AE of thought and not the AE of a ‘head’.
Sensation is AE of sensation and not AE of a ‘head’. It is only thought that points to sensation and labels the sensation as a ‘head’.
Is this clear?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?

There's no head because that is a thought about something. That something, the head, exists only in thought. The finger generates pressure, I feel the pressure.

Hmmm…”the finger generates the pressure”? Let’s look at this again.

Close the eyes and place a finger to the top of the head? Now IGNORE ALL THOUGHTS AND IMAGES about a HEAD and FINGER.

Does the finger actually create the “pressure”? How is it known that there is a finger there? Can you actually see the colour labelled “finger” to know it is a finger that is causing the pressure.

Plus finger pressing the head points to cause and effect and this points to time. There is no cause and effect or time.

And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

If I'm thinking about what is between the pressure points then it is a thought. What the thought is about exists only in thought and is not actually experience through the senses other than the thought experiencing the idea of a something between the pressure points.

Yes, exactly. And are there two "pressure points"?

What is the forehead in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image (of a forehead), right?

The forehead is a thought about something, the mental image. The sensation comes from touching the forehead. The sensation would be feeling pressure from touching or an image from looking however, it does not comprise a 'forehead'. A forehead only exists in thought.

Okay, let’s look more carefully at the idea of the ‘forehead’ and this is what I mean when I say have a deep look.

Step 1.
Close the eyes, take in a couple of breaths to settle the dust and focus your attention for at least 3-5 minutes on the location thought calls the ‘forehead’.

Did you notice the sensation? It may be subtle when you first start to look, but keep your focus there and just become aware of the sensation.

Step 2.
Now I want you to keep your eyes closed and keep your attention on the forehead and start ‘thinking’….notice the thoughts.

Did you notice the sensation in the forehead that seemingly comes with the thinking?

Step 3.
Now open the eyes and notice thinking again for a few minutes. Then start to concentrate on an issue you are trying to solve, or a maths problem.

Where does the attention go when ‘thinking’ is happening?
Did you notice the sensation labelled ‘concentration’ that seems to happen in the forehead when ‘thinking’?
Can you see how thought points to the head/forehead and says that the sense of self resides in there?

So, can a thought come from a sensation?

No. A sensation is actual experience of feeling something. A thought...just comes.

What exactly is it that is “feeling something”? Where does a sensation end and the knowing of it begin?

Can a thought come from a mental image?

This isn't clear, you mean a mental image arising from actual experiencing something from sight by using the eyes?

Close your eyes and think of a tree. What happens ie what appears in the ‘minds eye’?

With your eyes still closed, can you see the idea or a ‘mental’ image/outline/imprint which thought says are where the eyes are located?

So can a thought come from a ‘mental image’?

Where in sound, colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation does “pressure on my fingers” sit?

It doesn't sit with any of those. "Pressure on my fingers" is a thought.

Exactly! "Pressure on my fingers" is the AE of thought.

We were looking at what the actual experience is when you ignore all thoughts/images about a pen and a finger and what were you left with?

This exploration is about seeing there being no separate self. So where is this self that has senses and thoughts? Describe this self to me in precise detail and describe where it is located.

That would be all thoughts. I can't describe it in precise detail or where it is located because it's just more thoughts. The self can not be experienced through the actual experience of the senses.

There is no such thing as ‘senses’. For there to be ‘senses’ there would need to be a person in a body!

So if you are unable to find the ‘self’ in colour, smell, taste, sound, sensation or thought, where else would it be?

You tell me! Sit for 15 minutes quietly somewhere and just observe thought. them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all. Now you tell me if you can find where they come from and what generates them.

I can't. Any attempt at determining a source is a thought. It's all just a story.

Yes exactly. Also there is an idea here that a thought is a ‘thing’ that arises and subsides. Thought, like colour, smell, sound etc are ‘made of’ THIS/experience, not the other way round.

With love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

So, in actual experience the ‘head’ is AE of thought and not the AE of a ‘head’.
Sensation is AE of sensation and not AE of a ‘head’. It is only thought that points to sensation and labels the sensation as a ‘head’.
Is this clear?

Yes.

Does the finger actually create the “pressure”?

No. There's just the sensation of pressure.

How is it known that there is a finger there?

It's not known. Finger is a thought.

Can you actually see the colour labelled “finger” to know it is a finger that is causing the pressure.

Not with eyes closed. I can't see anything. However, anything labelled "finger" is a thought.

And are there two "pressure points"?

Only in thought. The actual experience is the sensation of pressure.

Did you notice the sensation? It may be subtle when you first start to look, but keep your focus there and just become aware of the sensation.

There was no sensation at first. I started thinking about other thoughts. Minutes would go by and I tried to focus back on my forehead, however, thoughts other than forehead would show up. The I saw the next question and realized I was supposed to feel a sensation so I tried again. When I just focused hard on the forehead it almost seemed that I could give myself a headache so I backed off and opened my eyes.

Did you notice the sensation in the forehead that seemingly comes with the thinking?

No, thinking didn't generate any sensation, except the feeling that thoughts are localized to the head.

Where does the attention go when ‘thinking’ is happening?

There is a sense that thinking happens in the head so if thoughts could be localized somewhere it would be behind and between the eyes. The attention goes to the head when thinking.

Did you notice the sensation labelled ‘concentration’ that seems to happen in the forehead when ‘thinking’?

Not unless I concentrated hard and then it didn't seem natural.

Can you see how thought points to the head/forehead and says that the sense of self resides in there?

Yes, thoughts always seem to come from the head and not from a different body part such as the big toe on the right foot.

Close your eyes and think of a tree. What happens ie what appears in the ‘minds eye’?

I visualize a tree.

Close your eyes and think of a tree. What happens ie what appears in the ‘minds eye’? With your eyes still closed, can you see the idea or a ‘mental’ image/outline/imprint which thought says are where the eyes are located?

Yes, a thought contains a visualized tree right there in front of the closed eyes. The thought says the tree is there, however, there's no actual experience of seeing a tree. The thought is what I think a tree looks like, it's not an actual tree.

We were looking at what the actual experience is when you ignore all thoughts/images about a pen and a finger and what were you left with?

Only left with the sensation of pressure.

So if you are unable to find the ‘self’ in colour, smell, taste, sound, sensation or thought, where else would it be?

The 'self' is a thought.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hello Todd,

Does the finger actually create the “pressure”?

No. There's just the sensation of pressure.

Yes. When a finger appears all that is appearing is colour which thought points to and labels as ‘finger’. So, how is it possible that colour can create sensation ‘pressure’?

How is it known that there is a finger there?

It's not known. Finger is a thought.

Lovely, yes!

Can you actually see the colour labelled “finger” to know it is a finger that is causing the pressure.

Not with eyes closed. I can't see anything. However, anything labelled "finger" is a thought.

Let’s have a look at the idea on body sensation and sight. Do this exercise several times until it is clearly seen.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one of the hands. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.
Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).

But actually, is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Where does the attention go when ‘thinking’ is happening?

There is a sense that thinking happens in the head so if thoughts could be localized somewhere it would be behind and between the eyes. The attention goes to the head when thinking.

"There is a sense" is the same as saying there is an idea and ideas are thoughts.
It is due to this that it SEEMS that there is where the “I” resides. Can you find an “I” there? Did you see any thoughts being generated there?

Did you notice the sensation labelled ‘concentration’ that seems to happen in the forehead when ‘thinking’?

Not unless I concentrated hard and then it didn't seem natural.

Whether or not it seemed natural is neither here nor there.
Over the next few days, when contemplation is happening or there is intense thinking, notice what happens around the forehead area.

Can you see how thought points to the head/forehead and says that the sense of self resides in there?

Yes, thoughts always seem to come from the head and not from a different body part such as the big toe on the right foot.

Are you being facetious Todd, or are you being humourous? When I asked you to point to where you thought you resided in the body, you found yourself pointing to the head. So we are exploring this to see if that holds any merit whatsoever…so that you can come to the realisation that there is no separate self at all. I am not doing it for my benefit, I have already had the realisation and more.

Close your eyes and think of a tree. What happens ie what appears in the ‘minds eye’?

I visualize a tree.

Yes, so this is what is generally called a ‘mental image’….right?

Close your eyes and think of a tree. What happens ie what appears in the ‘minds eye’? With your eyes still closed, can you see the idea or a ‘mental’ image/outline/imprint which thought says are where the eyes are located?

Yes, a thought contains a visualized tree right there in front of the closed eyes. The thought says the tree is there, however, there's no actual experience of seeing a tree. The thought is what I think a tree looks like, it's not an actual tree.

You didn’t read the final part of that exercise correctly. Can you read it again and then tell me what you find please.

We were looking at what the actual experience is when you ignore all thoughts/images about a pen and a finger and what were you left with?

Only left with the sensation of pressure.

Yes, so the pen in the hand is NOT the actual experience of "holding a pen (AE of action) would be the actual experience of feeling the pen in my hand".

Pen in the hand is AE of sensation and not the AE of a pen in the hand. Thought the points to the sensation and says it is 'a pen in the hand'.

So if you are unable to find the ‘self’ in colour, smell, taste, sound, sensation or thought, where else would it be?

The 'self' is a thought.

Yes, and how do you feel when you see this?

With love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

So, how is it possible that colour can create sensation ‘pressure’?

I've never thought about a physical thing as just colour before, this is a new way of thinking about it. The actual experience of seeing color creates the mental expectation that something is there. If there is no color, like air, then the expectation is that there is nothing tangible that could create pressure.

But actually, is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

The hand felt the same, eyes opened or closed. So it seems that there is no link between sensation and sight.

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, there doesn't appear to be a link between 'visual sight' and the sensation. When I closed my eyes the hand felt the same as when the eyes were open.

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Yes, 'visual sight' and sensation have no link and no hierarchy.

It is due to this that it SEEMS that there is where the “I” resides. Can you find an “I” there? Did you see any thoughts being generated there?

Yes, because SEEMS implies a judgement and something has to make that judgement. That something has to be an "I".

Are you being facetious Todd, or are you being humourous?

No. My apologies if it came across that way. I value our exchange and appreciate the time you're taking! :)

Yes, so this is what is generally called a ‘mental image’….right?

Yes

Close your eyes and think of a tree. What happens ie what appears in the ‘minds eye’? With your eyes still closed, can you see the idea or a ‘mental’ image/outline/imprint which thought says are where the eyes are located?

Yes, a thought contains a visualized tree right there in front of the closed eyes. The thought says the tree is there, however, there's no actual experience of seeing a tree. The thought is what I think a tree looks like, it's not an actual tree.

You didn’t read the final part of that exercise correctly. Can you read it again and then tell me what you find please.

It's clear now. I'm experiencing a tree without seeing it. A mental image is what I experience when closing my eyes and thinking of a tree, however, it's not exactly the same as when I'm looking at a tree. It's like I'm experiencing the 'essence' of a tree through a memory of a tree that I once saw and remember.

The 'self' is a thought.

Yes, and how do you feel when you see this?

Since I've let the idea of a self go I don't think in loops. Previously I would mentally chew on something and try to resolve it by thinking more thoughts. It was like a hamster wheel. When I was in this hamster wheel state new thoughts couldn't some in. Now that I'm getting new thoughts problems are getting solved easier.

Thanks and much love,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

So, how is it possible that colour can create sensation ‘pressure’?

I've never thought about a physical thing as just colour before, this is a new way of thinking about it. The actual experience of seeing color creates the mental expectation that something is there. If there is no color, like air, then the expectation is that there is nothing tangible that could create pressure.

What is an expectation? It is nothing more than a thought.

There is no place where colour isn’t!



Here is a picture of a doughnut. Now thought says that there is some doughnut missing, and that there is a ‘hole’ in the middle. Thought says the hole is empty and the doughnut is some ‘thing tangible

Is there anything really missing?
When you look ‘through the hole of the donut’ what is actually seen/there?

But actually, is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

The hand felt the same, eyes opened or closed. So it seems that there is no link between sensation and sight.

Right, so when eyes are closed there is only sensation with a ‘mental’ image of a hand appearing. With eyes open there is colour which thought labels as ‘hand’ and thought says that the sensation is coming from the sight of the hand. If this was the case, then would be no sensation felt when the eyes were closed…right?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Yes, 'visual sight' and sensation have no link and no hierarchy.

Wonderful! So you can repeat this entire exercise with all of body parts below, one-by-one. Spend a considerable amount of time on each of them:

- feet
- legs
- arms
- belly
- chest
- head (looking into the mirror)

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

It is due to this that it SEEMS that there is where the “I” resides. Can you find an “I” there? Did you see any thoughts being generated there?

Yes, because SEEMS implies a judgement and something has to make that judgement. That something has to be an "I".

You mean ‘yes’, you found an “I” and you saw thoughts being generated there? Or yes, it only SEEMS there is something that resides in the head and is generating thought?

Close your eyes and think of a tree. What happens ie what appears in the ‘minds eye’? With your eyes still closed, can you see the idea or a ‘mental’ image/outline/imprint which thought says are where the eyes are located?

It's clear now. I'm experiencing a tree without seeing it. A mental image is what I experience when closing my eyes and thinking of a tree, however, it's not exactly the same as when I'm looking at a tree. It's like I'm experiencing the 'essence' of a tree through a memory of a tree that I once saw and remember.

Okay, and going back to the ‘forehead’ exercise…. can a thought come from a mental image? When closing the eyes and a ‘mental’ image of a head/forehead appears, can a thought come from that image?


In the exercise with looking at the forehead and I asked if a thought can come from a mental image, you replied “this isn't clear, you mean a mental image arising from actual experiencing something from sight by using the eyes?”

So what I was pointing at with the tree, was not the tree, but the question was “With your eyes still closed, can you see the idea or a ‘mental’ image/outline/imprint which thought says are where the eyes are located?” The purpose of the question was for you to look and see if the body’s eyes are actually what see.

So what I was pointing at was that with your eyes closed, can you see the idea or a ‘mental’ image/outline/imprint which thought says are where YOUR eyes are located? Do this several times and notice how thought points to the general area of the eyes and there seemingly appears an imprint/outline/idea of your eyes.
Can you see what I am pointing to?

Can you actually see your eyes?
Can you actually see your head?
How is it known that you have a head or eyes?

The 'self' is a thought.

Yes, and how do you feel when you see this?

Since I've let the idea of a self go I don't think in loops. Previously I would mentally chew on something and try to resolve it by thinking more thoughts. It was like a hamster wheel. When I was in this hamster wheel state new thoughts couldn't some in. Now that I'm getting new thoughts problems are getting solved easier.

So, when seeing that the “I” is just an appearing thought, how does that make you FEEL? Do you feel lighter, or scared….how does it make you feel.

With love,
Kay

[NMSeeker]

Here is a picture of a doughnut. Now thought says that there is some doughnut missing, and that there is a ‘hole’ in the middle. Thought says the hole is empty and the doughnut is some ‘thing tangible

Is there anything really missing?

Not from the standpoint that a doughnut 'is what it is'. The doughnut was made that way.

When you look ‘through the hole of the donut’ what is actually seen/there?

What is seen is the thing behind the doughnut. In this case it's the white background.

Right, so when eyes are closed there is only sensation with a ‘mental’ image of a hand appearing. With eyes open there is colour which thought labels as ‘hand’ and thought says that the sensation is coming from the sight of the hand. If this was the case, then would be no sensation felt when the eyes were closed…right?

The sensation from the hand is the same, eyes open or closed. With eyes closed I was not thinking about a 'hand', just that there was a sensation.

Wonderful! So you can repeat this entire exercise with all of body parts below, one-by-one. Spend a considerable amount of time on each of them:

- feet
- legs
- arms
- belly
- chest
- head (looking into the mirror)

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

With eyes open I was associating the feeling of each body part with that body part. With eyes closed I just felt the feeling and did not associate the feeling with a body part.

It is due to this that it SEEMS that there is where the “I” resides. Can you find an “I” there? Did you see any thoughts being generated there?

Yes, because SEEMS implies a judgement and something has to make that judgement. That something has to be an "I".

You mean ‘yes’, you found an “I” and you saw thoughts being generated there? Or yes, it only SEEMS there is something that resides in the head and is generating thought?

No, I did not find an "I". The word "seems" infers an "I" because of the judgement implied in "seems". Something has to be making the judgement.

Okay, and going back to the ‘forehead’ exercise…. can a thought come from a mental image? When closing the eyes and a ‘mental’ image of a head/forehead appears, can a thought come from that image?

No. Thoughts just come, no origin can be determined. A thought can be about another thought, such as a mental image of a forehead, however, the thought did not come from that thought about a mental image of a forehead.

So what I was pointing at was that with your eyes closed, can you see the idea or a ‘mental’ image/outline/imprint which thought says are where YOUR eyes are located? Do this several times and notice how thought points to the general area of the eyes and there seemingly appears an imprint/outline/idea of your eyes.
Can you see what I am pointing to?

Yes. This is clear.

Can you actually see your eyes?

No

Can you actually see your head?

No

How is it known that you have a head or eyes?

Other than thoughts, it is not known. There is a thought that the eyes enable sight, since I can see there is a thought that I must be eyes. There is a thought that the head contains a brain which processes impulses from the eyes. Since I can see there must be a head that contains the brain, which processes impulses from the eyes.

So, when seeing that the “I” is just an appearing thought, how does that make you FEEL? Do you feel lighter, or scared….how does it make you feel.

I don't feel anything regarding this. There's just a lack of 'hamster wheel' activity where the brain just loops on something. Also, I recently was about to 'have a process' over something and generate some thoughts on feelings I should be having, however, the whole 'have a process' thing died out when I quickly realized there was nobody to experience the 'process'. I then just carried on and it was all forgotten.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hello Todd,

Here is a picture of a doughnut. Now thought says that there is some doughnut missing, and that there is a ‘hole’ in the middle. Thought says the hole is empty and the doughnut is some ‘thing tangible
Is there anything really missing?

Not from the standpoint that a doughnut 'is what it is'. The doughnut was made that way.

I am not interested “from the standpoint of the doughnut”! Where is the LOOKING? Did you even LOOK at this carefully and break it down into AE?
Please look again and answer from AE.

When you look ‘through the hole of the donut’ what is actually seen/there?

What is seen is the thing behind the doughnut. In this case it's the white background.

How is it known there is a "behind the doughnut"? NO looking was done with AE. You seem to rush these exercises and you don’t take your time. No exercise is about what you think there is….I have said several times this is not an exploration where thought is the tool to use.
I want you to LOOK with AE. What is the AE of this doughnut? Can you find a "hole" or a "behind the doughnut" in AE?

If I can’t get you start looking on your own, then this exploration will grind to a halt. It is not up to me to get back to you each time and tell you to look with AE. I am not a school teacher, it is up to you to LOOK very very carefully at what I am pointing at, because there is a reason for the pointing. Please start to LOOK otherwise this whole thing becomes tiresome as it is one step forward and two backwards. You have to start catching on that this exploration is about LOOKING and not thinking. I am not giving you exercises for the hell of it, they all have a point. And it is for you to LOOK CAREFULLY to see what I am pointing at. That was the purpose of the beginning exercises and getting you clear about what AE is and looking with AE. So can you please start looking at/with AE and start to LOOK carefully.

Do you do any LOOKING throughout your day at all? Or you only look when you come to answer the questions?

I want you to tell me how you LOOK. What is your process when LOOKING?

Right, so when eyes are closed there is only sensation with a ‘mental’ image of a hand appearing. With eyes open there is colour which thought labels as ‘hand’ and thought says that the sensation is coming from the sight of the hand. If this was the case, then would be no sensation felt when the eyes were closed…right?

The sensation from the hand is the same, eyes open or closed. With eyes closed I was not thinking about a 'hand', just that there was a sensation.

Oh, come on…how could you not be thinking of a hand with your eyes closed? There is an automatic inference (ie and idea or mental image or both) that the hand is been shaken and that is what is creating the sensation. That is why the exercise is given….so you can see that inference/idea and check it with AE to see that thought is talking rubbish!

So I ask you to do that again and watch your thoughts and mental images.

Yes, because SEEMS implies a judgement and something has to make that judgement. That something has to be an "I".
You mean ‘yes’, you found an “I” and you saw thoughts being generated there? Or yes, it only SEEMS there is something that resides in the head and is generating thought?

No, I did not find an "I". The word "seems" infers an "I" because of the judgement implied in "seems". Something has to be making the judgement.

How is it known that “seems” implies a judgement?
And what exactly is making that judgement?

How is it known that you have a head or eyes?

Other than thoughts, it is not known. There is a thought that the eyes enable sight, since I can see there is a thought that I must be eyes. There is a thought that the head contains a brain which processes impulses from the eyes. Since I can see there must be a head that contains the brain, which processes impulses from the eyes.

How exactly do you see a thought? I want you to have a really good look at thought.
Does thought have a voice? Does thought have sound? Does thought have an image? Does thought have a sensation? Does thought have a taste? Does thought have a smell? Can you describe a thought?

So, when seeing that the “I” is just an appearing thought, how does that make you FEEL? Do you feel lighter, or scared….how does it make you feel.

I don't feel anything regarding this. There's just a lack of 'hamster wheel' activity where the brain just loops on something. Also, I recently was about to 'have a process' over something and generate some thoughts on feelings I should be having, however, the whole 'have a process' thing died out when I quickly realized there was nobody to experience the 'process'. I then just carried on and it was all forgotten.

Right, so there is no feeling of lightness, no shift whatsoever, even though there was a lack of ‘hamster wheel’ activity? Everything was still exactly the same, that there is a heaviness to life and life is hard?

With love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

I am not interested “from the standpoint of the doughnut”! Where is the LOOKING? Did you even LOOK at this carefully and break it down into AE?
Please look again and answer from AE.

Is there anything really missing?
When you look ‘through the hole of the donut’ what is actually seen/there?

There is nothing missing. The actual experience of the hole is seeing the color white.

I want you to LOOK with AE. What is the AE of this doughnut?

The actual experience of seeing this doughnut is a reddish-purple round object with sprinkles except that there is a white circle in the middle.

Can you find a "hole" or a "behind the doughnut" in AE?

There is no hole or "behind the doughnut" in AE.

Do you do any LOOKING throughout your day at all? Or you only look when you come to answer the questions?

Not with inanimate objects. Only in situations with people that would cause stress by attaching a story around a set of circumstances. Looking helps simplify interactions that could grow into drama.

I want you to tell me how you LOOK. What is your process when LOOKING?

The process when looking is simple, just see what is there and don't attach a story.

Oh, come on…how could you not be thinking of a hand with your eyes closed? There is an automatic inference (ie and idea or mental image or both) that the hand is been shaken and that is what is creating the sensation. That is why the exercise is given….so you can see that inference/idea and check it with AE to see that thought is talking rubbish!

So I ask you to do that again and watch your thoughts and mental images.

I went back and tried to find anything about a shaken hand. I could only find an exercise where the hand is just there and I was supposed to experience the sensation of the hand with eyes open and closed. The sensation of the hand was the same, eyes open or closed. I have nerve damage in my hands so I feel a dull pain all the time. The pain is the same, eyes open or closed.

How is it known that “seems” implies a judgement?

"Seems" has observation as part of it. Something has to be making the observation.

And what exactly is making that judgement?

An "I".

How exactly do you see a thought?

I don't see thoughts. I just actually experience thoughts.

Does thought have a voice? Does thought have sound? Does thought have an image? Does thought have a sensation? Does thought have a taste? Does thought have a smell?

No. Thought does not have a voice, sound, image, sensation, taste, or smell.

Can you describe a thought?

A thought points to sound, image, sensation, taste, smell or other thoughts. However, it is not sound, image, sensation, taste, or smell.

Right, so there is no feeling of lightness, no shift whatsoever, even though there was a lack of ‘hamster wheel’ activity? Everything was still exactly the same, that there is a heaviness to life and life is hard?

Everything is the same, however, I'm not thinking that life is heavy or hard. I'm just not stuck in self induced mental thought loops. I realized there's no I to be stuck in a loop.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hello Todd,

When you look ‘through the hole of the donut’ what is actually seen/there?

There is nothing missing. The actual experience of the hole is seeing the color white.

Yes, thank you! There is no ‘hole’. There is never anything missing.

Silence is no different to sound. Only thought says some 'thing' isn't there.
Darkness is just a colour, like any other, no different from light. Thought labels darkness as the absence of some 'thing' but it is no less knowing/known than light is.
Empty space is no different to solid matter, it is still a some 'thing', not a lack of some 'thing'.

I want you to LOOK with AE. What is the AE of this doughnut?

The actual experience of seeing this doughnut is a reddish-purple round object with sprinkles except that there is a white circle in the middle.

So the AE of a doughnut is thought, as a doughnut is not known. What is actually known is AE colour which thought points to and labels as a doughnut.
Is this clear?

Can you find a "hole" or a "behind the doughnut" in AE?

There is no hole or "behind the doughnut" in AE.

Wonderful!

Have a look at the following picture. Thought says that the door is open and that there is space between the edge of the door that is seen and the wall behind the door. But is there?



Now, go open your front door like it is in this picture and have a look. Is the open door actually taking up ‘space’? And is there ‘space’ between door and the wall behind the door?

Do you do any LOOKING throughout your day at all? Or you only look when you come to answer the questions?

Not with inanimate objects. Only in situations with people that would cause stress by attaching a story around a set of circumstances. Looking helps simplify interactions that could grow into drama.

That is great that you look when in situations with people, however LOOKING, at least for the duration of this exploration, needs to include inanimate objects as well as animate objects, so that it can be seen that there is no such things as inanimate or animate objects, as there are no subject/object split.

I want you to tell me how you LOOK. What is your process when LOOKING?

The process when looking is simple, just see what is there and don't attach a story.

And when you look at an animate object, what is actually there?

So I ask you to do that again and watch your thoughts and mental images.

I went back and tried to find anything about a shaken hand. I could only find an exercise where the hand is just there and I was supposed to experience the sensation of the hand with eyes open and closed. The sensation of the hand was the same, eyes open or closed. I have nerve damage in my hands so I feel a dull pain all the time. The pain is the same, eyes open or closed.

Yes, the sensation is always there, be it pain or sensation which thought labels as hand. What I wanted you to see is the automatic inference/idea of it being a hand which includes the mental image of a hand that appears. The point being so that you can see how thought points to these to reinforce the idea/belief that the body is real and that you reside in a body.

How is it known that “seems” implies a judgement?
"Seems" has observation as part of it. Something has to be making the observation.

And what exactly is making that judgement?
An "I".

Where is this “I” exactly and what does it look like?

What does the word/thought “SEEM” point to? What is the AE of “SEEM/S”

How exactly do you see a thought?

I don't see thoughts. I just actually experience thoughts.

What exactly is it that experiences a thought?
Where does a thought end and the knowing of it begin?

Does thought have a voice? Does thought have sound? Does thought have an image? Does thought have a sensation? Does thought have a taste? Does thought have a smell?

No. Thought does not have a voice, sound, image, sensation, taste, or smell.

Exactly, so how is it ‘experienced’?

Can you describe a thought?

A thought points to sound, image, sensation, taste, smell or other thoughts. However, it is not sound, image, sensation, taste, or smell.

No, that isn’t describing a thought. That just says what a thought does.
Describe a thought. Tell me what it looks like, feels like, tastes like, sounds like, and smells likes. I would like for you to describe a thought just as you would if you were describing a person.

Right, so there is no feeling of lightness, no shift whatsoever, even though there was a lack of ‘hamster wheel’ activity? Everything was still exactly the same, that there is a heaviness to life and life is hard?

Everything is the same, however, I'm not thinking that life is heavy or hard. I'm just not stuck in self induced mental thought loops. I realized there's no I to be stuck in a loop.

Lovely! So, if there is no “I” to be stuck in a loop, why would there be an “I” period?

With love, Kay