Getting to the heart of things

[NMSeeker]

What is it exactly that can reject or accept anything?

Haha! Ok, it's just a thought that is ingrained over time. This thought is that we have control.

Is there a choice in what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, thought or felt?

That depends on what choice means. Since I don't eat the same thing every day, on the surface level there appears to be choice. At some deeper level there's a convergence of events that makes me crave that glass of orange juice and when I go to the fridge and get the glass of orange juice I think, 'I made this choice.'

Where is this "me" located exactly?

There is no 'me' that can be located. Just perception and thoughts being created.

As per my above answer, thought is not imagination. Is there not awareness of thoughts when they appear? Are you not Then how can they be imagination. Thought either points to AE or they point to thoughts about thought ie content of thought. If the content of the thought 'water' was actual water, everytime the thought 'water' appeared you would get wet! The content of the thought 'water' is thoughts ABOUT water.
Can you see this?

I stretched the definition of imagination here to include thoughts. Yes, I understand the difference of an actual experience thought versus the content.

Take, for example the thought “I am confused”.
“I am confused” is the thought. The ensuing thoughts of what that means is the content. And those ensuing thoughts are AE of thought, but point to nothing more than thoughts about thought. Can the actual thought 'I am confused' be confused?

Thoughts can not be confused. However, thoughts can be confusing!

Can a thought think or be confused?

No

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?

Water

So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

No

Labels are ‘real’ (actual experience) as appearing thoughts but its ‘content’, what the thought is ABOUT is not ‘real’ and is NOT the AE of ‘content’.
Can you see this?

Yes.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Many thanks for doing the desert exercise. We just have to tweak the looking. Shifting from thinking to noticing what actually is can be frustrating and require some practice. Thoughts are the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry with. This is about noticing what can be found in your immediate direct/actual experience, noticing what's going on here now (ie sound, colour, smell, sensation, taste) and describing what can be found.

What is it exactly that can reject or accept anything?

Haha! Ok, it's just a thought that is ingrained over time. This thought is that we have control.

Yes, it is just an appearing thought.
What exactly is it that has “ingrained” thoughts?

What is the AE of “There's a tendency to reject the idea that there's no control over thought.”?

Is there a choice in what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, thought or felt?

That depends on what choice means. Since I don't eat the same thing every day, on the surface level there appears to be choice. At some deeper level there's a convergence of events that makes me crave that glass of orange juice and when I go to the fridge and get the glass of orange juice I think, 'I made this choice.'

This answer is from thinking ie the intellect and no from looking.

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you choose to think a range of thought? If so, have a look to see if you can you hold four thoughts at one time?

Where is this “me/I?” that is choosing, making decisions and controlling and that can have cravings? Describe this “me” in precise detail and describe exactly where it is located.

Where is this "me" located exactly?

There is no 'me' that can be located. Just perception and thoughts being created.

Since no "me" can be located, what exactly is it that is perceiving? Where is the perceiver located?
And what exactly is creating thoughts?

Take, for example the thought “I am confused”.
“I am confused” is the thought. The ensuing thoughts of what that means is the content. And those ensuing thoughts are AE of thought, but point to nothing more than thoughts about thought. Can the actual thought 'I am confused' be confused?

Thoughts can not be confused. However, thoughts can be confusing!

To what exactly are thoughts confusing? To sound? To smell? To taste? To sensations? To colour?
Thoughts are not aware of other thoughts, so to what exactly are thoughts confusing? Describe what it is that finds thoughts confusing.

Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts:

(1) Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

(2) This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

(3) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(4) When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

(5) Then wait for the next thought to come.

(6) Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

What exactly is it that has “ingrained” thoughts?

I'm not sure what 'it' is. These ingrained thoughts come easily. That's the best way to explain them.

What is the AE of “There's a tendency to reject the idea that there's no control over thought.”?

The actual experience of that statement is to reject the idea that there's no control over thought.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, I only have a current thought, there is no next thought.

Can you choose to think a range of thought? If so, have a look to see if you can you hold four thoughts at one time?

I can only think about one thought, not a range of thoughts, and certainly not four at a time.

Where is this “me/I?” that is choosing, making decisions and controlling and that can have cravings? Describe this “me” in precise detail and describe exactly where it is located.

I can't speak to this. I don't know.

Since no "me" can be located, what exactly is it that is perceiving?

I can not pinpoint anything that is perceiving. However, perception is experienced.

Where is the perceiver located?

I don't know.

And what exactly is creating thoughts?

I don't know.

To what exactly are thoughts confusing? To sound? To smell? To taste? To sensations? To colour?

Thoughts are confusing to the experiencer of the thoughts because they are labeled 'confusing'.

Thoughts are not aware of other thoughts, so to what exactly are thoughts confusing?

I don't know. Thoughts appear. They are labeled confusing.

Describe what it is that finds thoughts confusing.

The thoughts come labeled as confusing. That's what they are, confusing thoughts.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

The gap is experienced with 'with no voice in the head' and it feels like time stands still during the gap. It feels like time stands still because all of sudden the next thought comes and there's a sensation of starting up from a stop.

With Love,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hello Todd,

Before I respond to your post, I want you to back to the beginning and THOROUGHLY read my introductory post that I sent you before we started this exploration. I wrote the following, which I would like you to read several times.

This exploration is based on questions and exercises. I will ask questions as a means of pointing, but the questions aren’t about finding something unknown. The questions refer to what is already actually known. And what is already known? Sound, smell, taste, thought, sensation and colour. So, questions are not answered through thinking/thoughts (theories) but by LOOKING. The key is that you really have to LOOK. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

What is LOOKING? ‘LOOKING’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. Actual Experience (AE) refers to your current experience ‘right now,’ without the labels and thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple noticing of thought at face value.When looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

You have not been LOOKING at all, you have just been responding from thought.

I want you also to read your entire thread from the beginning to now. The whole foundation of this exploration is based on actual experience (AE) and the beginning exercises were showing you how to become aware of actual experience. So I would suggest that you redo those exercises.

When you have read your thread, please let me know and let me know what you understood from what we have explored so far.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

This will take some time to go back and look.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hi Todd...take your time. There is only a couple of pages, but read everything thoroughly. When you are finished, let me know how you went and what questions you have.

Love, Kayh

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

I'm ready to proceed. I've re-read the earlier posts.

From our conversation I've gathered that there's two things:
1.) Thoughts are not real, specifically the content of thought is not real. For example, if I think about a tree, there's no tree, just the actual experience of thinking about a tree.
2.) Actual experience is real. Actual experience can be of thoughts or sensory experiences. For example, I can touch a tree and feel it, this is an actual experience of feeling. While I'm touching the tree I can also think about a tree, however, thinking about the tree is just the actual experience of the tree thought. The tree does not exist outside of the actual experience of sensory experiences and thoughts about trees.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Welcome back!

From our conversation I've gathered that there's two things:
1.) Thoughts are not real, specifically the content of thought is not real. For example, if I think about a tree, there's no tree, just the actual experience of thinking about a tree.

Yes, exactly. If there is no colour labelled 'tree' in your current moment, then the thought 'tree' is just the AE of thought ie thoughts about a tree.

Thoughts are actual experience. They appear just like smell, sound, taste etc. However, the content of thought does not hold any experience, other than more thought!

2.) Actual experience is real. Actual experience can be of thoughts or sensory experiences. For example, I can touch a tree and feel it, this is an actual experience of feeling. While I'm touching the tree I can also think about a tree, however, thinking about the tree is just the actual experience of the tree thought. The tree does not exist outside of the actual experience of sensory experiences and thoughts about trees.

Lovely, Todd! Yes...nicely explained and am glad to see that AE is now clear :)

What I would like to do now is to go back and get you to redo the thought exercise so that you get to see how thoughts actually work. Do the following exercise several times. Read through the questions first, so you know what you are observing/looking for when you sit quietly to do the exercise of observing thoughts.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from and going to?

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No. If a thought happens then it happens, thinking about another second thought replacing the first thought seems impossible.

Where are they coming from and going to?

The thoughts just appear and leave, there doesn't seem to be a destination or origin that I can determine.

Can you predict your next thought?

If this means predicting a thought without thinking about that thought, no.

Can you push away any thought?

It appears that I can concentrate on a new thought, replacing the old thought. I'm not sure that is pushing the old thought away. If I try to push away a thought I just think about it more. The thought survives my effort to 'push it away'. My answer is no.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that a thought is a complete unit and can't be broken into parts. For example, thinking about anything brings about the thought all at once. For example, as soon as I think about a flower, the whole flower is thought. It's not like I can stop part way through the process of thinking about a flower and only half of the flower is thought about. My answer is no.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I can concentrate on specific pleasant thoughts. If I don't concentrate on something specific then random thoughts come. A range of thoughts is not specific, therefore, it is not possible to select from a range of thoughts. My answer is no.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, because by not concentrating on specific thoughts I'm leaving the door open for any thought to come.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can concentrate on a specific thought. However, I can't sit back and say, "I'm only going to think happy thoughts", and expect just happy thoughts to come. My answer is no.

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

No. Once a thought comes it is what it is. It's too late, there's no control after the thought comes.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. By trying to prevent the thought from appearing that is just thinking of the thought.

Including the thought 'I'?

No. Trying to prevent a thought from appearing is just thinking of it, including the thought 'I'.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

It's impossible to know if there's a truly logical organised sequence independent from the thinker because thinking of the thoughts in that way is putting the thinker's bias into the logical order. My answer is no.

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yes, it is just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence'.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Okay, so if you did not do anything to make a particular thought/s appear, then can there actually be a thinker of thoughts?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No. If a thought happens then it happens, thinking about another second thought replacing the first thought seems impossible.

Nice looking, yes. So then it can be said that it is impossible to predict any thoughts, including your next thought and any thoughts after a thought appears?

Where are they coming from and going to?

The thoughts just appear and leave, there doesn't seem to be a destination or origin that I can determine.

Great! So while looking you did not find a storage place where thoughts are stored and retrieved?

Can you predict your next thought?

If this means predicting a thought without thinking about that thought, no.

How can you think about a thought without knowing what the thought is already? Does a thought appear like an empty thought bubble and then you think about what you are going to put into that thought bubble?

How do you think about a thought you are going to think?

Can you push away any thought?

It appears that I can concentrate on a new thought, replacing the old thought. I'm not sure that is pushing the old thought away. If I try to push away a thought I just think about it more. The thought survives my effort to 'push it away'. My answer is no.

And what would be the purpose of pushing away a thought, since the thought has already been awared? And from where did that new thought appear? How did you know that a new thought was going to appear? Because a thought said so? And how is it known that are thought is being pushed away…because another appearing thought said so?

How do you stop thinking about a thought? Where does a thought end and another begin? “I am going to stop this thought by pushing it away” is itself a thought.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that a thought is a complete unit and can't be broken into parts. For example, thinking about anything brings about the thought all at once. For example, as soon as I think about a flower, the whole flower is thought. It's not like I can stop part way through the process of thinking about a flower and only half of the flower is thought about. My answer is no.

Exactly! Whatever you do right now, don’t think of a pink elephant! How well did you stop that thought from appearing?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

I can concentrate on specific pleasant thoughts. If I don't concentrate on something specific then random thoughts come. A range of thoughts is not specific, therefore, it is not possible to select from a range of thoughts. My answer is no.

“Specific pleasant thoughts” is a range of pleasant thoughts, Todd.

Without thought, how would it be known that you are concentrating? Can you find anyone in the sensation labelled as “concentration” that is actually ‘concentrating’? Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is concentrating or knows anything about concentration?

How is it known that there are thought thoughts and random thoughts, and that there is a difference? How is that difference discerned? What is it exactly that is thinking thought thoughts and what is thinking random thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No, because by not concentrating on specific thoughts I'm leaving the door open for any thought to come.

So you must feel exhausted by the end of each day having to concentrate so much to try and control random thoughts from appearing, only to have Todd thoughts!

Where does this “concentrating” take place? In a head? Let’s have a look at this.

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there *must* be something between them?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

I can concentrate on a specific thought. However, I can't sit back and say, "I'm only going to think happy thoughts", and expect just happy thoughts to come. My answer is no.

And from where do you get this thought that you are concentrating on? Where are all YOUR thoughts stored for you to go to and have a look to see which thought you are going to bring to the forefront to think/concentrate on, and where are the random thoughts stored…those pesky one’s that appear without your permission?

Then how do you bring that specific thought from storage to the forefront. I want a step by step description to how this is done.

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

No. Once a thought comes it is what it is. It's too late, there's no control after the thought comes.

How do you know what the thought is going to be until it ‘comes’, as you put it? Do you get some sort of preview….’warning, warning, Todd…the thought that says “you are sad” is about to appear. What would you like to do with that thought…save, cancel, delete or try again?

And this seems a contradiction to your other answers as you say there is a way you control thoughts by concentrating on a specific thought! Isn’t that controlling thoughts?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. By trying to prevent the thought from appearing that is just thinking of the thought.

But you said you can by concentrating on a specific thought, then that must stop other thoughts from appearing...right?

Including the thought 'I'?

No. Trying to prevent a thought from appearing is just thinking of it, including the thought 'I'.

And what is thinking of the thought? If you can’t find where thoughts appear and go to, then how is it known that there is something thinking thoughts or what thought is going to appear next.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

It's impossible to know if there's a truly logical organised sequence independent from the thinker because thinking of the thoughts in that way is putting the thinker's bias into the logical order. My answer is no.

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think? How do you put a sequence of thoughts in order, before they are seen, so that they all come in order, one after another to be seen?

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Okay, so if you did not do anything to make a particular thought/s appear, then can there actually be a thinker of thoughts?

By thinker of thoughts do you mean generating thoughts or something that is actually experiencing thoughts? I actually experience thoughts, however, I'm not generating the thoughts themselves.

So then it can be said that it is impossible to predict any thoughts, including your next thought and any thoughts after a thought appears?

Yes.

So while looking you did not find a storage place where thoughts are stored and retrieved?

Correct. No storage place was found.

How can you think about a thought without knowing what the thought is already?

You can't. That's impossible

Does a thought appear like an empty thought bubble and then you think about what you are going to put into that thought bubble?

No. Either you think about the thought or you don't.

How do you think about a thought you are going to think?

It's the current thought.

And what would be the purpose of pushing away a thought, since the thought has already been awared?

There's no purpose. There's no pushing away a thought. Either you're thinking of that thought or another thought.

And from where did that new thought appear?

There's no source that I can determine. The new thought just appears.

How did you know that a new thought was going to appear?

You don't know.

Because a thought said so?

A thought enters and says, "Think about this other thought."

And how is it known that are thought is being pushed away…because another appearing thought said so?

A thought that contains a 'push a thought away' dialogue is thought. Either you're thinking of something or you're not. Any 'push a thought away' thoughts are just more thoughts.

How do you stop thinking about a thought?

A new thought appears.

Where does a thought end and another begin?

There's just the current thought. I can not determine a thought's beginning and end.

Without thought, how would it be known that you are concentrating?

Concentrating is a thought. There's a thought that says, "you are now concentrating".

Can you find anyone in the sensation labelled as “concentration” that is actually ‘concentrating’?

No. There's just thoughts about concentrating.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is concentrating or knows anything about concentration?

That would be thoughts about concentrating and knowing about concentrating.

How is it known that there are thought thoughts and random thoughts, and that there is a difference?

There are just thoughts. I can't determine between thought thoughts and random thoughts.

How is that difference discerned?

It's not discerned.

What is it exactly that is thinking thought thoughts and what is thinking random thoughts?

The thoughts are being experienced. I can not determine or locate a thinker.

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

It is not a head. Just a sensation labelled 'pressure' and a story. Same goes for apple, rose, etc. The content of the thought doesn't exist. There's just actual experience from the senses and thoughts about thoughts.

Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?

A head is not found, just sensations.

And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there *must* be something between them?

haha! :) Without actual experience of the senses, it has to be a thought. A thought that says, "there must be something physically in my head, otherwise I wouldn't be able to function."

And from where do you get this thought that you are concentrating on?

It's a thought that just appears that says, "Concentrate on this".

Where are all YOUR thoughts stored for you to go to and have a look to see which thought you are going to bring to the forefront to think/concentrate on, and where are the random thoughts stored…those pesky one’s that appear without your permission?

I can not determine a storage location for concentration thoughts or random thoughts.

Then how do you bring that specific thought from storage to the forefront. I want a step by step description to how this is done.

There's no bringing a thought out of storage. Either the thought is being thought or it is not. Any story around the thought creation process is a thought.

And what is thinking of the thought? If you can’t find where thoughts appear and go to, then how is it known that there is something thinking thoughts or what thought is going to appear next.

I'm experiencing the thought. I'm not thinking the thought or determining the next thought.

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think? How do you put a sequence of thoughts in order, before they are seen, so that they all come in order, one after another to be seen?

I don't create thoughts. A choice is a thought that says, "you've made this choice." I don't put together a sequence of thoughts. If I think there is a sequence of thoughts that is because I have a thought that says, "this is a sequence of thoughts."

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Okay, so if you did not do anything to make a particular thought/s appear, then can there actually be a thinker of thoughts?

By thinker of thoughts do you mean generating thoughts or something that is actually experiencing thoughts? I actually experience thoughts, however, I'm not generating the thoughts themselves.

The exercise was to see if you could find what it is that generates thoughts, which is generally termed as simply thinking. So, I am glad you clarified this! :)

So you see that there is no generator of thought, however to experience thought would also mean that there is a ‘you’ who is actually experiencing thought ie that there is an experience (thought) that is being experienced by someone; and that there is something that is generating thoughts for a ‘you’ to experience them.

Can a generator of thought be found anywhere in any shape or form, or do they just appear?
Can a ‘experiencer’ of thought be found anywhere? Does thought experience a thought? Does colour experience a thought? Does smell, sound, sensation or taste experience a thought?

Does a thought appear like an empty thought bubble and then you think about what you are going to put into that thought bubble?

No. Either you think about the thought or you don't.

Where does thought end and the knowing of the thought begin. Can a dividing line be found between the thought and the knowing of the thought? Look carefully here.

How do you think about a thought you are going to think?

It's the current thought.

Exactly! It has already appeared. So where is the thinking of it? ‘Thinking’ is a verb, so for there to be ‘thinking’ means that there has to be someone who is actually ‘thinking’ thoughts.

So, let’s look at verbs in general. Let’s take a verb ‘thinkING’. For ‘thinking’ there should be:

1. a separate thing (person = body) a 'thinkER', that is doing or having the ACT of ‘thinking’
2. a separate thing, an object that is being experienced
3. the ACTION of ‘thinking’ (as an interACTION between #1 and #2)
4. TIME in which the 'action of ‘thinking’ unfolds
Without these 4 elements there is no verb.

All verbs, including the verb 'experiencing' are based on the assumption of the existence of these 4 elements. Can you see this?

Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

It is not a head. Just a sensation labelled 'pressure' and a story. Same goes for apple, rose, etc. The content of the thought doesn't exist. There's just actual experience from the senses and thoughts about thoughts.

(Big smile here!)

And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there *must* be something between them?

haha! :) Without actual experience of the senses, it has to be a thought. A thought that says, "there must be something physically in my head, otherwise I wouldn't be able to function."

Beautiful, Todd!

In actual experience can an actual “between” pressure points be found?

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Can a generator of thought be found anywhere in any shape or form, or do they just appear?

Thoughts just appear. Thinking that there's a generator of thought is another thought.

Can a ‘experiencer’ of thought be found anywhere?

No, an 'experiencer' can not be found. Thinking of an 'experiencer' is just a thought.

Does thought experience a thought?

No, thought can't experience a thought. A thought just is.

Does colour experience a thought? Does smell, sound, sensation or taste experience a thought?

No, colour, smells, sounds, sensations, or tastes don't experience thoughts. They just are.

Where does thought end and the knowing of the thought begin. Can a dividing line be found between the thought and the knowing of the thought?

There is no dividing line between the thought and knowing the thought. Knowing the thought is the same as the thought itself. They both are one and the same.

All verbs, including the verb 'experiencing' are based on the assumption of the existence of these 4 elements. Can you see this?

Yes, broken down into the 4 elements it's apparent.

In actual experience can an actual “between” pressure points be found?

Between is a thought. I could actually experience the thought of "between", however, the content of the thought, "between", doesn't exist.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

With the sound off I was watching the soccer game. The players moved around and took shots on the goal. With the sound on I was watching the soccer game and thinking about what the announcers were saying.
With the sound back off I was still thinking about what the announcers we saying, those thoughts were still present. I couldn't just watch the action without thinking about the commentary.
With the sound back on, and ignoring what I think I know what thought is talking about, the commentary is a distracting noise.

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

No, it is not a necessity.

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

No, inner narration is not a necessity. Events still happen independently of our thoughts about them.

Thanks,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hi Todd,

Lovely, LOOKING....thank-you!

Does thought experience a thought?
No, thought can't experience a thought. A thought just is.

Does colour experience a thought? Does smell, sound, sensation or taste experience a thought?
No, colour, smells, sounds, sensations, or tastes don't experience thoughts. They just are.

Exactly, so then can anyone/anything be found that is actually creating or thinking thoughts?

Where does thought end and the knowing of the thought begin. Can a dividing line be found between the thought and the knowing of the thought?

There is no dividing line between the thought and knowing the thought. Knowing the thought is the same as the thought itself. They both are one and the same.

Nice! :)

In actual experience can an actual “between” pressure points be found?

Between is a thought. I could actually experience the thought of "between", however, the content of the thought, "between", doesn't exist.

Yes! The content of every single thought is just a story, and the actual experience of thought isn't any different just because the content of the thought is different.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

With the sound off I was watching the soccer game. The players moved around and took shots on the goal. With the sound on I was watching the soccer game and thinking about what the announcers were saying.
With the sound back off I was still thinking about what the announcers we saying, those thoughts were still present. I couldn't just watch the action without thinking about the commentary.
With the sound back on, and ignoring what I think I know what thought is talking about, the commentary is a distracting noise.

The commentary on the soccer game is exactly the same the commentary that thought has about a 'Todd and his life'. It is a never ending flow of stories of a separate character. If you have a look, what is the AE of Todd? Thought is simply thought and is not a problem if you see them for what they are, and thoughts are simply just an appearance like sound, colour, smell etc. It is only thought that says thought is necessary for the flow of life to happen.

What is the actual experience of 'players, ball, soccer field' and 'commentators'? They are simply the AE of colour and yet thought, the commentator has a wonderful exciting story on how colour are players that are running up and down a field kicking a ball and that colour is a crowd of people cheering!

Without sound, without the commentators, what did you notice about the your interaction with the game? Did you get sucked into the game, the excitement of someone about to kick a goal or the disappointment when play didn't go the way it should of etc?

If you were to watch your favourite sport on TV without sound the entire game, would the game be of interest?

Since you are not the thinker/owner of thought, are 'you' responsible for what happens?

And with that question, it leads us to the idea of control, choices and decision making.

Do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of?
If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.

Did you really have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
Could you have chosen what you were aware when the eyes opened?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Exactly, so then can anyone/anything be found that is actually creating or thinking thoughts?

No.

If you were to watch your favourite sport on TV without sound the entire game, would the game be of interest?

I would watch it if it was my team. The game might be better without sound.

Since you are not the thinker/owner of thought, are 'you' responsible for what happens?

I'm responsible for my actions. I'm not responsible for the thoughts.

Did you really have any choice about being aware of all of that?

No. The color black was directly experienced.

Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?

Thoughts just come, there's no choice in thoughts.

Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?

No. Thoughts just appear, without any effort.

Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?

Not if I experienced black.

Could you have chosen what you were aware when the eyes opened?

No, the direct experience of seeing is what it is.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

I choose my actions.

Thanks,
Todd