Stuck in the mud

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

OK, good plan!

This is a good place to kick off... tell me your response to these questions:

Sitting here now, seeing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?

Hearing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?

Tasting, smelling, feeling ... do these just happen?

Thoughts arise ... do they just arise, or does 'I' make them happen?

.... so what is 'I'? Where is 'I' to be found?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Sitting here now, seeing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?

Sitting at the computer seeing is happening. My experience is that it just happens and there is no "I" making it happen. Just seeing without doing anything.

Hearing is happening - does this just happen, or does 'I' make it happen?

There is a patter sound at the window from the rain. It's a softer patter on the skylight. There is no "I" hearing just the experience of sounds.

Tasting, smelling, feeling ... do these just happen?

Tasting and smelling just happen. Tastes and smells arise. Feelings arise sometimes pleasant sometimes unpleasant, but they just arise. There is no "I" in this experience just experience.

Thoughts arise ... do they just arise, or does 'I' make them happen?

Thought arise with no "I" making them happen. They arise and pass. Thoughts are just thoughts, they carry on without an "I".

.... so what is 'I'? Where is 'I' to be found?

The "I" is not found in seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, or feeling. There is no "I" orchestrating thoughts. There is no "I" in walking, or making decisions. Things happen and I experience them. So "I" is nowhere to be found.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

OK, great!

Things happen and I experience them.

What is the "I" that experiences them?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

What is the "I" that experiences them?

There is no “I” there is just experience.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

OK, good stuff!

When you stop and consider the question now, is there any doubt remaining about the existence of "self"? Is there any lurking sense that "there MUST be a self because otherwise....."?

Would you say that you have seen through the illusion of self?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

When you stop and consider the question now, is there any doubt remaining about the existence of "self"? Is there any lurking sense that "there MUST be a self because otherwise....."?

There is a doubt lurking. It is not that there is a 'self' because it cannot be found. Its an expectation which we have discussed before, to just notice the expectation as just another passing thought. The expectation being that passing through the illusion of self, would be a explosive bodily movement and that there would be no doubt. As this has not been experienced, the doubt lingers that the illusion has not really been seen through. The experience of not finding a 'self' has happened in small consistent stages, with experiences of joy and sometimes laughing out loud. So this seems to point to a doubt.

Would you say that you have seen through the illusion of self?

Yes the illusion of 'self' has been seen through but can this be so when the expectation is still lurking.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Ah yes, expectations! It could be worth our looking at the content of the expectations at some point, but you have already put your finger on the most profound way of addressing them:

notice the expectation as just another passing thought

And why not, I wonder? No doubt some thoughts are "just passing thought", but expectations are more .... sticky somehow?

Is there something about 'expectation' thoughts that seems to lend them more weight or credibility or 'reality' than a thought which is "just a thought"?

Can you identify exactly what, if anything, is special in the experience of an 'expectation' thought?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Is there something about 'expectation' thoughts that seems to lend them more weight or credibility or 'reality' than a thought which is "just a thought"?

This expectation is based on others accounts of the experience of seeing through the illusion. Therefore this makes them seem more credible. It's as if they are factually accurate about the experience and so another 'belief' is born!

An 'expectation' thought is no more real than a 'self' it is merely a thought turned into a belief.

Best wishes
Stavarha

[DianeSt]

PS they are not found direct experience.

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

There are many, many accounts of this transition, and they vary hugely.

The accounts that are most spectacular and memorable are the ones that we are most likely to notice and remember. This general phenomenon is a well-known cognitive bias, affecting things like how we evaluate danger (eg tourists often fear terrorist attacks more than road traffic accidents, even though they are hundreds of times more likely to be run over than blown up, because traffic accidents largely go unreported but terrorist attacks are reported luridly) and the chances of winning the lottery (winners are given publicity and noticed, and losers ignored).

One prominent teacher I know never noticed any shift at all - he just reflected one day that he was no longer subject to the kinds of habits and delusions that he used to suffer from, and eventually concluded that self-view had at some point dropped away without his noticing!

So I think you may be expecting to experience particular well-known 'markers' that are not universal, but which are well known for the same reason that terrorist attacks and lottery wins are well known .... they make good stories!

The markers that are universal relate to freedom. Mere intellectual clarity about no-self does not typically make any difference to the quality of one's day-to-day experience.

However, seeing clearly and knowing without doubt that 'self' was always an illusion does change things. Change does not come all at once, because habits almost always wear down gradually, but there will be more freedom, which gradually changes everything. For example, some preoccupations or stories, which would once have been utterly compelling, should lose their iron grip and become easier to drop once noticed. Over time, and with the application of careful attention, this becomes very significant.

I am not trying to persuade you that you have realised something if your experience tells you otherwise, but if you have expectations, it is important that they are realistic.... does this help at all?

... putting that aside for the moment and returning to the question in my earlier post ....

Could you describe the direct experience of this doubt? Particularly, what qualities in the experience make it more "sticky" than another thought? The content of the expectation-thoughts ("there should be an explosive bodily movement!") is just one aspect, what else is going on? How does one aspect of the experience feed into another?

Having looked carefully at what is going on, ask: Can "I" be in doubt? Can "I" become convinced?

Best wishes

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Thank you for your last post which has clarified thoughts arising over several days. The expectation of seeing through the illusion of 'self' was based on a couple of claims 'I' read (no 'I' just using this to explain). At the start of the process 'I' decided not to read other posts. When 'I' did once or twice, start to read them I stoped after a few minutes.

Going back to your earlier question:

When you stop and consider the question now, is there any doubt remaining about the existence of "self"? Is there any lurking sense that "there MUST be a self because otherwise....."?

Would you say that you have seen through the illusion of self?

There is now no doubt about the existence of "self" which is not found in direct experience. Seeing through the illusion of self has been a gradual process. Last week in a situation, a thought arose "you have no purpose here". My response after a few seconds was "ok I will be here without a purpose and thats ok"

About a hour later realising that I could no long kneel sadness arose and then a thought "ok I will do it standing up and thats ok". In both examples there were no stories about the loss of not being able to kneel down or the importance of a defined role. These examples show a big shift toward freedom. No 'I' no "self" no "me" and no illusion.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

a big shift toward freedom. No 'I' no "self" no "me" and no illusion.

It's wonderful to read such confidence! Great!

There is a set of 6 standard LU questions that help to look at the nature of any shift that has happened - I suggest we look at them, if there's nothing you'd like to go into first?

These are the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when your are ready.

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no entity 'self', 'me' 'I' in any shape or form. At first I thought there had to be a 'me' somewhere that was in charge making decisions or else how could anything happen. When the 'I' wasn't found in one place it had to be somewhere else. Even when it wasn't thoughts or in the brain, there was still the belief that it was somewhere. But it was not to be found as it was never there in the first place. Experiences happened without a separate 'me' in control.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a belief or a story that when sense experiences happen there is a 'me' or and 'I' that is experiencing them. Then stories about the 'me' or 'I' are formed and the stories turn into facts to explain the experience. This in turn creates all sorts of unhelpful thoughts and feelings which in turn creates more stories and so it goes on and on. It is not possible to know when the illusion of separate self started as it has always been there, well up until now that is.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is incredible to have seen this. When I started the dialogue it took persistence and hard work which was only possible with my your patience and skill in keeping me on track. The separate self moved around each time the self wasn't found. Two situations on the same day last week, when painful thoughts arose, instead of catastrophizing and ruminating the thought of 'thats just how it is' gave rise to a sense of freedom, there was nothing added on.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There was an expectation that something big needed to happen to prove that the seeing was complete. After several days of pondering, the realisation happened, that this was just another belief, another story involving comparisons. The discovery of no self has been a gradual process while examining each of the senses. For the seeing to be complete it didn't have to be a lightening moment, the direct experience had already happened.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is no self involved in decisions, intentions, free will, choice and control. These are willed actions sometimes involving complex processes, just like the rain falls depending on complex weather patterns. There is no separation there is just experience. Ethics aid choices, actions and decisions with responsibility laying firmly with the writer of this piece with the label Diane.

6) Anything to add?

I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to be guided by you Perry. You have guided me with great skill and support. Your clear explanations and examples made a huge difference when I seem to loose my way. Thank you for giving your time freely to help me see through the illusion. I don't want to stop as the sense of urgency to keep going is as strong as when I started.

I am also grateful to LU who provide this platform to share what they discovered.

With very best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

What a lovely read! Such confidence and clarity!

I don't think I have anything to add, but I would like to see if any other guides have anything they would like to go into (this is standard LU procedure). Is it OK with you if I ask a couple of other LU guides to take a look over our thread?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Yes that is all ok.

I can’t thank you enough for all your help. Your clear explanations were vital given my past history, they enabled me to have the confidence to keep looking even when things were tough.

So the biggest thank you ever.

Best wishes
Stavarha