breaking through

[Barbarossa]

No, i am not experiencing this now, I am just explaining what I have observed many times.

i know, but we are here to look what is here now.
you can't look at the rainbow of yesterday, right?

there's a reason to every question, and every question is just pointing where to look at.

how is "memory" experienced -
what is the direct experience of "memory"?

[Watashi]

how is "memory" experienced -
what is the direct experience of "memory"?

Thoughts and images come up and also some emotions

[Barbarossa]

yes.

if you imagine superman, for example, does he become real?
the thought 'superman' of course is experienced, but the content isn't.
so why trust thoughts? ( > The trigger is a fixed view or opinion, you could call this a thought-package which has been held for a long time. I am just explaining what I have observed many times.)

i'm not saying that your observations are wrong.
but if you take a look from another angle, if you take thoughts and emotions for what they are - just appearances, and look again, you maybe discover something new.

[Watashi]

i'm not saying that your observations are wrong.
but if you take a look from another angle, if you take thoughts and emotions for what they are - just appearances, and look again, you maybe discover something new.

Just looking at them as you suggest I see a difference. When I look at thoughts they simply get replaced you could even say pushed away by new thougts, this happens quite quickly. When I look at a strong negative emotion, it only disolves gradually and only when it is completely gone, a positive emotion rushes in. With weaker emotions this is not so clear and they seem to disappear together with the thoughts.

Both thoughts and emotions influence each other but when looked at closely they both not only just appear and disappear but can also be replaced by a sudden interruption - which just happened - and get replaced by totally different thoughts and emotions. Would it be right to say that they are both just mental constructs without substance?

[Barbarossa]

Both thoughts and emotions influence each other

look at thoughts and emotions and tell me what exactly is the connection.

[Watashi]

Both thoughts and emotions influence each other

look at thoughts and emotions and tell me what exactly is the connection.

Thoughts are straightforward but emotions are complex. I have been trying to figure this out all day, again and again, but I am not certain. I will try to explain my understanding. It seems to me that emotions always come with a complexity of thoughts but there is also a more fundamental aspects to them. Some connections are clear: positive thoughts cause positive emotions and vice-versa, negative thoughts cause negative emotions and vice versa. So you could say negativity and positivity are the connections. But I also observed a physical aspect or component: thoughts and emotions affect the abdominal region and the heart, there is a tightness in those areas of the body with negative thoughts and emotions and there is a relaxation, a lightness with positive thoughts and emotions. Since negative and positive is an personal interpretation and therefore abstract, this only leaves the physical effects as actual experience and therefore as connection between thoughts and emotions.

[Barbarossa]

hey watashi,

i see, you've put a lot effort in your investigation.
but i'm afraid that there's a misunderstanding.

when i say "look", i mean the looking at direct experience.
direct experience is everything you are able to experience.
that is sensory experiences, thoughts, emotions.
why look at direct experience?
thoughts are only one part of the experiential-spectrum.
they don't experience truth, they don't know truth, but they are labelling it, and they are labelling the labels, and so on. the outcome is far from truth.

when you talk about positive and negative - that is a thought-story.
what is the direct experience of thought-stories? - it's thoughts.

what effort does it take, to listen to the a good song? - to watch a movie?
look at thoughts and emotions with the same effort, watch them come and disappear (or as they disappear, if they are already there ;) ).

and look at their connection, IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE.
if you find it - what is it?
if you can't find it, if you can't see, taste, hear, smell, feel a connection of thoughts and emotions, what does that mean?

[Watashi]

and look at their connection, IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE.
if you find it - what is it?
if you can't find it, if you can't see, taste, hear, smell, feel a connection of thoughts and emotions, what does that mean?

Thanks for your detailed explanation!

I had to think of a connection. If I can only see, taste, hear, smell or feel a connection between thoughts and emotions, I cannot perceive one. Both thoughts and emotions just come and go, just like thoughts, emotions too are beyond control, they appear and disappear depending on circumstances.

[Barbarossa]

Both thoughts and emotions just come and go, just like thoughts, emotions too are beyond control, they appear and disappear depending on circumstances.

exactly. :)

I had to think of a connection. If I can only see, taste, hear, smell or feel a connection between thoughts and emotions, I cannot perceive one.

so the only thing saying there must be a connection is just another thought?

when such a situation (identifiying with views and opinions, getting angry and greedy for sensual pleasures.) appears, what happens, if you LOOK IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE for the one who is identified and angry?
can you see, hear, taste, smell or feel a person? - try it! :)

[Watashi]

I had to think of a connection. If I can only see, taste, hear, smell or feel a connection between thoughts and emotions, I cannot perceive one.

so the only thing saying there must be a connection is just another thought?

Exactly! That's why I wrote: I had to think of a connection.

when such a situation (identifiying with views and opinions, getting angry and greedy for sensual pleasures.) appears, what happens, if you LOOK IN DIRECT EXPERIENCE for the one who is identified and angry?
can you see, hear, taste, smell or feel a person? - try it! :)

No, I cannot perceive a person, that is very clear now, and liberating! When I stay with my direct experience I don't identify with such mind states, great!

Thanks for your patient guidance!

[Barbarossa]

great. :D

looking is key.
identification might show up again, but when ever there seems to be a person - look for the person - is there really someone?
looking will increase.
anger, greed, aversion,... will fade.

what if identification happens - when an illusion, known as illusion appears -
does that really matter?

are such mind states a problem? for whom?

[Watashi]

what if identification happens - when an illusion, known as illusion appears -
does that really matter?

are such mind states a problem? for whom?

No, I understand now. Greed, aversion, illusions only become issues if not recognised as such.

Since they are just mind states, they cannot be problems since there isn't really anyone - or should I say there really isn't anyone?

[Barbarossa]

sorry for my bad english, i don't think that i got this:

there isn't really anyone - or should I say there really isn't anyone

right, but it sounds like you are uncertain about it.?

how would "direct experience" answer that question:

are such mind states a problem? for whom?

?

[Watashi]

sorry for my bad english, i don't think that i got this:

there isn't really anyone - or should I say there really isn't anyone

right, but it sounds like you are uncertain about it.?

how would "direct experience" answer that question:

are such mind states a problem? for whom?

Oops, sorry, your English is absolutely fine, I was just making a play on words, my fault!

No there is no uncertainty at all, let me rephrase this:
Such mind states are not a problem, because in reality there is nobody!

Sorry for the confusion I caused!

[Barbarossa]

no problem at all.

if there is no uncertainty or questions regarding to the illusion of the separate self, i'd like to ask you the final questions.
if they get confirmed, you'll get invited to a few facebook groups, which may be of interest.


so, here is the final questions, there's no hurry at all, take the time you need.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Please describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?