Beyond the ceiling

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Eauvive
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Eauvive » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:43 pm

Dear C,

thanks for your reply to my last post, it's very empowering.

Reflecting on the intention/control/will issue, I realise that I have reached a bit of a dead end. I am clear about the the illusion of a separate self holding together an identity; it doesn't exist. But I still struggle with the illusion of "some sort of active agent". Sorry that's vague, but that's where I'm stuck.

This morning I was doing some gardening and making lots of little decisions about it. They were fuelled by thoughts and there was quite a lot of weighing pros and cons. It really felt like there was an inner source for the "doing". Are all those thoughts part of a flow determined by conditions? Theoretically, I suppose so, yes. In practice, it doesn't yet feel like that.

Not that I imagine a guy in my head at the commands of the ship, no. Rather, like a stream finding its way from moment to moment.
Let me know if you need some suggestions about where to look.
Yes please!

Hugs,

Eau Vive

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Canfora
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Canfora » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:07 pm

Dear Eau Vive, I had a very busy day today and I'm tired. I'll reply as soon as possible. Hugs!

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Canfora
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Canfora » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:43 am

Dear Eau Vive,
Reflecting on the intention/control/will issue, I realise that I have reached a bit of a dead end.
Ahah, that's because you are reflecting instead of looking :)

We aren't trying to stop, change, finish with, understand the intention/control/will issue. If the conditions are in place, you will believe you are behind the intention/control/will. When you think "I want pizza for dinner" and you have pizza for dinner, it will always seem that it was your intention, control and will that made you have pizza for dinner.

What we are doing is checking if there is a real you among what is happening (if the thinking, the interpretation, matches what is being experienced).

I borrowed this exercise from other guide, it's one of my favorites. Have a go at it:

"Here's a very simple exercise you can do while sat down.

Choose one of the hands, it doesn't matter which. Actively make a choice of one hand or the other.
Then when you've chosen one and you feel you wish to, raise that hand into the air.

1) Can what is choosing the hand (left or right) be FOUND?
2) Can an 'I', a Person, (or the body itself??) be found that is choosing?
What exactly is making the choice?
What do you FIND?

What proof do you have that an actual choice is being made!?!
(Not an assumed choice, a 'real' choice)."

************************************

You can also look for a "decider" (a you that makes a decision) when you are in your bed in the morning. Can you find a decider when the body goes out of the bed? Does going out of bed happen because there is a you deciding when to do it?

Or when you are choosing what to wear.

Or when you are going to have coffee or tea or this or that. What makes you decide what to eat? Is it a real you?

When the body goes left or right, what makes it move that way? Is it an I?

I think this will give you some direction and you can look every time it seems you are deciding or controlling something and see what is behind the actions.

Take your time and let me know how these suggestions work out for you.

Hug,
C

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Eauvive
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Eauvive » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:26 pm

Thank you Canfora,

this is really helpful, and actually it fits well with an acknowledgment I had in meditation today. There's not really a choice being made, after all. It's more like competing options appear and a series of subtle (or less subtle) thoughts manifest instantly to give more weight to one option or the other. Then a direction is taken, but it all happens by itself.

The hand exercise made that even clearer. When trying to find what is choosing, I can trace back the thoughts that led to the choice, but at the source of those thoughts, there is a void. At first I put it down to yet another mystery to surrender to, but then when you asked:

What proof do you have that an actual choice is being made!?!

Well, no proof at all.

I will continue to look in the way you suggest, just to bring more ease into it. But it's already quite straightforward. After all, it's the same guiding question that has already cleared so much ground, only now applied to a specific mechanism.

It seems an easy one now. The fog is lifting!

I hope you have more time to breathe today. Thanks for sharing some of it here.

Eau Vive

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Canfora
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Canfora » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:14 pm

Dear Eau Vive,
it's the same guiding question that has already cleared so much ground, only now applied to a specific mechanism.
Yes it is. You did great looking, as usual!
I will continue to look in the way you suggest, just to bring more ease into it.
Okay, take your time but keep me posted -- I would like to know how you are going.

Hugs,
C

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Eauvive
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Eauvive » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:48 pm

Dear Canfora,

Things continue to clarify a bit everyday.
take your time but keep me posted -- I would like to know how you are going.
I will.

I'm still struggling with the question of responsibility and ethics. It is easier to apply our guiding question to single events, but rather difficult to apply the conclusions on the scale of a society or a group. In seeing decision-making as empty, somehow it would be easy to conclude that life is a sort of free for all, and that it doesn't really matter if actions are skilful or not. If decisions take place through a complex set of conditions, does it mean that everything is predetermined? That we have no responsibility whatsoever? What about the Noble Eightfold path in Buddhism? Those precepts take some effort to be applied, who makes that effort? Is the effort towards "good" just another thing that arises?

Hmm. Still on it.

Take care!

Eau Vive

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Canfora
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Canfora » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:51 pm

Dear Eau Vive,
I'm still struggling with the question of responsibility and ethics. It is easier to apply our guiding question to single events, but rather difficult to apply the conclusions on the scale of a society or a group. In seeing decision-making as empty, somehow it would be easy to conclude that life is a sort of free for all, and that it doesn't really matter if actions are skilful or not. If decisions take place through a complex set of conditions, does it mean that everything is predetermined? That we have no responsibility whatsoever? What about the Noble Eightfold path in Buddhism? Those precepts take some effort to be applied, who makes that effort? Is the effort towards "good" just another thing that arises?
It seems you are being a little obsessive about wanting a satisfying conclusion? Why? What is the role that all this questioning is having on you life at the time being? Are you trying to avoid something? Are you seeking something?

Hugs.
C

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Eauvive
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Eauvive » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:07 am

Dear Canfora,

yes, maybe I'm hammering it a bit! Simply: the question of ethics brings a sense of not having understood HOW it works. But maybe the urge to find out is just another habit that will fall off in time. Or maybe understanding will deepen by continuing to look. Or maybe there is no need to understand at all...

Hugs to you! We have a mild sunny day today, but it snowed at the weekend. I have let go of understanding the seasons! I hope you have a good day.

Eau Vive

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Canfora
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Canfora » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:48 pm

Dear Eau Vive,
I have let go of understanding the seasons!
And they still go on, like they always did! ;-)

We are having a mix of wonderful shiny springfull days and cloudy days here. Today the sun is shining bright.

I think you told me you've already seen this video about Neuroscience and Free Will?: https://vimeo.com/90101368

How would you answer Q5 at the time being?
  • Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
    What makes things happen?
    How does it work?
    What are you responsible for?
    Give examples from experience.
Hugs,
C

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Eauvive
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Eauvive » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:45 pm

Dear Canfora,

I've just watched the video, it's quite a striking experiment. It's very helpful, because I think what I've been experiencing is some resistance in accepting what I see, insofar as free will is concerned.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
Decision: the thought process that precedes an action. We'd like to think that it is managed at a conscious level, but consciousness actually comes at the end tail of it. It happens by itself, without a director leading the orchestra, and depends on a complex web of existing factors, including experiences from the past and anticipation of the future.

Intention: the will to orient the decision-making process in a certain direction, so that the actions will be aligned in a certain way. Intention is born from the spontaneous compilation of past experiences and hopes for the future, and is geared towards ensuring pleasure and avoiding pain. Once hatched, it becomes one of the factors influencing decisions and actions.

Free will: the illusion of controlling the processes described above. It is a wrong conclusion based on a certain interpretation of thought-experience and its apparent dependency on a separate self. The belief in free will greatly contributes to consolidate the illusion of self, and the attachement to it.

Choice: choice is a decision favouring one option rather than another, when two or more options are available. The process can be described in the same way as "decision", and it is often influenced by intention. See above!

Control: control consists in mastering a situation, an object, a being. In a lot of cases, it is more pleasant to feel in control of things, as it seems to vouch for less suffering. So trying to gain control is almost like a survival instinct. It is very deeply rooted in the subconscious mind. The feeling of having control is a great contributor to the illusion of self and something that can become quite difficult to let go of because it brings a sense of safety. But the fact that control exists doesn't mean that someone is in control. It is just the way the dynamics are played between elements of a given situation.

What makes things happen?
An incredibly complex cocktail of factors of which only a few are accessible to the conscious mind. The conscious mind enters the stage after things have happened. It takes stock of what has happened, but because it has no access to what has led to it, it tends to generate cause and effect explanations. In those explanations, it claims a big defining role it never had. There is no way to tell how something happens. Some factors are tangible, others not; influences from the past, fears and hopes, thoughts, situations, society, culture, love, nature, cosmos...
How does it work?
I realise my troubles with that question were driven by the question Why, not How. Letting go of Why and looking at How, I can just surrender to the complexity of it. "It" works by itself, and all the illusions that are piled up about Self making it happen come from looking at things after they have happened and pretend someone was at the helm before they did. There is a scary aspect to acknowledging this. A big big surrendering to the flow.
What are you responsible for?
There is a "you" in that question, which makes it tricky to answer. There is no self, so no separate entity is responsible for anything. However, thought processes are not completely wild. When an intention hatches, it can bend action in a certain direction. At the root, it is driven by the avoidance of suffering and maybe also by a natural life force akin to love.
Ethics come from the collective will to avoid collective suffering. In the big pool of thought processes, a certain order takes shape, just as stars and planets are shaped and aligned in the cosmos. It is an impersonal process which, from the human point of view, feels very personal.
Hence the illusion that we are in command of actions and responsible for their consequences. It is true that actions have consequences and that unskillful actions will most probably backfire at some point, but this is like a law of nature; at the root of the action, we might find factors that culminated in it, but we cannot find a separate self.
Give examples from experience.
Here are two from today:

My daughter has had a tummy ache for some days. Every morning, a decision has to be made about whether or not she should go to school. All sorts of considerations are weighed into the balance, including the standards of good parenting. In this debate there is no firm guideline and there is a sense of chaos, but somehow, a decision always emerges at some point. It has simmered like a soup and, pop!, it's ready. There is no control there, no one aligning the thoughts, there is just a spontaneous maturing of the decision. (The girl is still in bed.)

Later I sat at my computer with admin stuff to resolve before doing some bits of writing. Sure enough, here I am in the forum instead. At no point was there a decision made about it. Just click click, "this feels right", a soft pushing into this direction. What is noticeable, is that although there is irritation about time passing and the day moving on without any writing done yet, it is just this: slight irritation.
Before our conversation a few months ago,the same situation would have brought a lot of beating "myself" up for not doing this or that, accomplishing stuff that confirmed, consolidated, magnified, improved the self, or brought rewards to it. There would have been guilty feelings, a dreadful sense of not being productive enough. The day was a rigid ticking the boxes on the path to a better self.
There is nothing like that anymore. Just ah well, hey-ho, this feels important now, let's just do it. Self was like a big project that absorbed lots of energy. It rested on the illusion that someone was directing the project and directly profiting from it (ME). Without the project, there is only now and and even greater energy shaping activities from minute to minute. At no point does it feel like someone is in charge of deciding what the next minute will contain.

Dear Canfora, take your time in replying to this very very long post. It was really enjoyable to write, and surprising as well, because when I saw your same questions coming back, I had no idea how much clearer it had all become over the last week. It looks like the same applies to clarity as to decision: it just happens...

Hugs!

Eau Vive

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Canfora
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Canfora » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:00 pm

Dear Eau Vive,

Those are lovely answers. It amazes me the deep you go to answer these questions, I'm the kind of person that would answer "I don't know" to almost all of them! I hope your daughter gets better soon (and that your husband is as okay as possible).
The day was a rigid ticking the boxes on the path to a better self.
Oh, yes. Brilliantly worded!

I'm going to ask LU's administrators to check if they have more questions to ask you but feel free to write here if you want to address something else with me. I would like to suggest that you became a guide here yourself - because I think you would be a good guide! - although I have the feeling that you are way too busy at the time being, managing a very hectic schedule. This is just a suggestion of course since guiding, in my opinion, is the best way to keep challenging and reinforcing the seeing of the self illusion.

So, I'll let you know if there are more questions to ask you or, if things go faster than they usually do, an administrator will contact you with further information and an invitation to join LU groups.

Big hug,
C

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Eauvive
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Eauvive » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:20 pm

Wow, Canfora, what a beautiful post you sent me.

It was a strong experience to write those answers yesterday, something was happening. (Now, don't ask me how!...)

I would be extremely honoured to become a guide one day. That suggestion truly filled my heart. I am not too busy, and in any case I can hardly imagine a better use of my time. At the moment, though, I feel the need to continue to unravel the seeing for a while. Everyday I notice something new in terms of perspective, opening or understanding.

How would it work? I have no idea how Lu is organised.

I don't know how to put into words how grateful I am for your time, your patience, your kindness and your perspicacity. I will unwrap that gift for years to come.

Thanks also for your wishes! The girl is back to school and my husband is improving (unusual with his condition). All warm wishes also go your way, for you and your family.

I will stay in touch if more questions arise.

Big hugs for now,

Eau Vive

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Canfora
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Canfora » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:14 pm

Dear Eau Vive,

It is a pleasure and a previlege to be your guide. I've trully enjoyed it. LU has some strutures in place for people that want to guide, that you can acess if you wan to, when you feel the time is right (after this conversation reaches its end). Happy to know your family is okay, mine is well also. The kids are at home, she's studying Fernando Pessoa for a Portuguese exam (and playing Splatoon at the same time...) and he is in holidays from the university and reading books like if there is no tomorrow. They are both nice kids. Both a little odd, I guess - like their parents! - but nice.

Regarding your answer to Q5.... what would you say is behind decisions, choice and control?

Can you see clearly that a separate you that decises, chooses and controls is an illusion?

If a thought is "I can decide what I will cook for dinner." what would you say this I is?

Big hug,
C

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Eauvive
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Eauvive » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:25 pm

Dear Canfora,

thank you for this. I've read it yesterday and, as usual, left it all simmering on the back burner for a while.
what would you say is behind decisions, choice and control?
Awareness comes quite late in the process of deciding and choosing. It's like seeing only the tip of the iceberg and mistaking it for the whole process, and then concluding "ah yes, I was there all the way long, I made the decision, I weighed the options, I'm in control of decision and choice."
But where are those processes really rooted, where do they start? There's no way to tell. What is behind them is just a set of conditions that directs the flow in a certain direction. Not an entity for sure -- not a person, not a separate self.
Can you see clearly that a separate you that decises, chooses and controls is an illusion?
Yes, when stopping and looking. Then it's clear. When just going about at a more mechanical level, I can sink back into the habit of pondering stuff as if in charge of the decision process, not questioning the roots of decision-making. You might ask me next who decides to stop and look instead. Same answer! No one. It just happens.
If a thought is "I can decide what I will cook for dinner." what would you say this I is?
If the sentence were, "I've decided what to cook for dinner", then "I" would be the awareness of a choice having come to fruition (with or without a debate) through a flow of conditions.
In the sentence "I can decide what I will cook for dinner", then "I" mistakenly refers to an entity in control of that choice. It is a false conclusion reached from awareness being able to notice the process and claiming it as its own.

I find this question quite challenging because it refers to direct ordinary experience (on purpose, clearly!), and doesn't really allow for the rational/intellectual approach I've just used. But what else to say? Looking clearly shows there's no one at the helm. And Looking as such just seems to happen.

There's a big void opening in that process, the sense of a deep deep mystery, a sea of flowing conditions without anything solid to peg thoughts on and also wonder at the fact that Looking is even happening, that awareness exists at all.

What do you say?

Hugs!

Eau Vive

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Canfora
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Re: Beyond the ceiling

Postby Canfora » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:21 pm

Dear Eau Vive,

I like your answers. Thank you for taking the time to let the questions simmer and answer them.
awareness being able to notice the process and claiming it as its own.
It seems you are identifying with awareness at the time being? Is this awareness you talk about something separate from all the rest?

Noticing happens - how do you know awareness is what notices?

Does awareness have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this awareness?

Hug,
C


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