Entering into oneness

[Wildlichen]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
In recent months, I have had new experiences of being present with the world, without the constant thoughts and habitual reactions of what is "good" and "bad" that are usually projected. Becoming more and more aware of the quality of my thinking in my day to day life has made me realize that what I think of as "me" is just learned social responses.

What are you looking for at LU?
Help to see my blindspots, and some stabilizing support as I let go of who I think I am and touch the void that underlies the human experience. I have been deeply engaged in this process for 6 months, mostly in solo practice rather than with a group or guide, and I think that having someone to give me feedback and help me create a container for this experience would be helpful.

I'm currently deepening my meditation practice and finding support through the Triratna sangha as well. I've learned from many different spiritual paths, and currently I'm finding Buddhist teachings and philosophy the most helpful in understanding my experiences, so I'm hoping to connect with others who are working with these approaches.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Honestly I'm not sure what to expect from this forum. I hope for acceptance and non judgement to help create a safe space for honesty and vulnerability. I expect to have my beliefs and expectations challenged, hopefully in a compassionate and loving way. I expect mutual respect rather than adherence to a specific doctrine.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have been questioning and seeking since early childhood, renouncing the religion of my childhood (Church of England) when I was 7, due to what I saw as logical inconsistencies. I'm prone to having mystical experiences at the drop of a hat. I have practiced earth based spirituality of various kinds for 20 years, since my mid teens. I don't identify as a practitoner of any specific spiritual path, but rather find that different practices are helpful at different times in my life, and I tend to look for the deeper truths that they point towards.

I have had the privilege of learning from many different traditions including: paganism, animism, Taoism, yoga, Buddhism, indigenous spirituality (specifically Cree, Anishnaabe, and Quechua). The most consistent threads of my practice have been connection with the natural world, and working with deities /archetypes.

I have a tendency to immerse myself deeply into a practice for months or years, then it falls away and a new path emerges. My current practice is mostly Buddhist meditation, focusing on mindfulness of breathing and the Metta bhavana, and learning from Buddhist teachers such as Pema Chodron and Thich Nhat Hanh. Ayahuasca ceremonies with a Quechuan shaman has also been very influential in the last couple of years. Over the last year, I have been training as a priestess of Ishtar through direct experience of the Goddess - although as my belief in the realness of my self and personality slips away, I no longer know what that means.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

[poshgeek]

Hi Wildlichen,

So very nice to meet you here at LU.
A happy new now to you!

What would you like me to call you?


We can have a conversation and see what happens. All I ask of you is to be completely honest and write from your experience alone, not from what you have read or heard or learned so far. So for the duration of this investigation, it is of utmost importance to refrain from every truth seeking „out there“. Let the books and teachings rest. Look inside you and only trust your very own experience and insight. Also please let me in on your process, whether you think you’re doing well or not. This is your process, I can point the way, but you are the one to do all the work :)!

Is that okay for you?

Becoming more and more aware of the quality of my thinking in my day to day life has made me realize that what I think of as "me" is just learned social responses.

Can you give me more detail on your observation of „me“? How did your me come to be? What does it consist of? How does me feel, is there a feeling of me?


I’m looking forward to our conversation!

Love,
Sarah

[Wildlichen]

Hi Sarah,
Thanks for your reply. My name is Moss - pleased to meet you. Thanks for explaining the process, and yes that works for me.

Ok, to jump right in: my observation of "me" has built slowly over many years, based on self reflection and mindfulness . However, 6 months ago I started having new experiences of being completely present at times, without the input of a me, and , outside of those times, almost constant real time awareness of the processes of my "self" - watching each thought, the emotional and physiological reaction to that thought etc.

And what I've noticed about all those thoughts and reactions is that much of "me" seems to be stock social responses and cultural conditioning, to a much greater degree than I would ever have imagined. There's a lot of fear, a lot of worry about acting in a way others will find acceptable. Many of my lifelong personality traits have dramatically changed - for example, I've always been a competent person who does whatever is necessary, but for the last 6 months I find myself unable to do those things. Which brings up a lot of anxiety and self hatred.

A lot of fear and dread come up whenever I think about things that need to be done. Last night it suddenly occurred to me that I'm directly experiencing hypervigilence, rather than it happening at the subconscious level. It feels like a high pitched whine, a constant activation of habitual fear responses.

So at this point, "me" feels like a bag of fear and other unpleasant emotions, and the only relief is when I can get into the present moment and just be. So how well I think I'm doing depends on how much I can be in the moment.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
Moss

[poshgeek]

Dear Moss

It looks as if you're already well into the process. Very good. And you seem to have experienced the homeopathic nature (how I like to call it) of this process - it get's worse before it get's better. Hang in there!

On how to quote: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

"me" feels like a bag of fear and other unpleasant emotions, and the only relief is when I can get into the present moment and just be

So why are you not always "in the present moment"? Why do you ever leave it? Very provocative questions, I know. But please try to really look at that moment when you "fall out" and tell me what happens, like I didn't know a thing about this topic. How do you get into the present moment? How do you get out of it? Why do you get out of it? What triggers it? Why do you sometimes not get into it? What triggers it to get into it? Do you ever choose to leave it? Why?

This might trigger some more negative feelings. Just write them down with the rest of what you find, to give me a clear picture of where you stand.


Looking forward to our work together!

Love, Sarah

[Wildlichen]

Dear Sarah,
Those are very relevant questions.

One thing I've noticed is that, after I've had some time of simply being, the "talk show radio host" voice in my head will kick in with running commentary etc. It seems to be a response to discomfort and a way to feel safe - a way to distance myself from the immediacy of my experience.

When I have times of being truly present - no internal voice at all, silence from my end and all there is is what's happening around me - it feels very difficult to sustain. It feels like I have to exert effort or that inner monologue takes over. And there's also a sense of "now what?" - like I don't know how to live there. I think perhaps the habit of needing to do, to change, to control, is so hardwired that when I enter that state of presence,,it feels uncomfortable and so some part of me takes back the reins in order to feel safe.

As for how I get into it, usually through focusing on the physical sensations of breath and body, or on the sights and sounds of my environment. But the times when I really go all the way, there seems to be some x factor, and for an unknown reason everything is suddenly more vivid and what I think of as me is just a deep silence, a vessel for awareness of the world around me.

Looking forward to going deeper!
Love
Moss

[poshgeek]

Dear Moss

Thank you for letting me into your world.

It seems to me that your system somehow intuitively knows, that neither of these two states are "it". So I ask you now to throw all these experiences, concerning this topic, over board! All your ideas and expectations on what or how it could/should be! Over board with it all. Clean slate. Now.

Are you ready to do that?


Ready to tread carefully and follow what feels right. 100%.
I am here to point, but you will observe it all in your own experience, every step of the way. You will know, because you have seen it yourself. We will follow the breacrumbs of truth... are you ready to go deep?


Please let me assure you, that this doesn't mean that your previous path or work was for nothing. I can see that you have a lot of experience in observing and describing what is going on. That will be a huge advantage for this process! Plus you're gutsy - that'll help too :)


I'm exicted to hear from you.

Love, Sarah

[Wildlichen]

Dear Sarah,

Yes, I do feel ready to throw it overboard - for months I've felt on the verge of a very different way of being.
However, I'm not sure exactly how to throw it overboard. Lately I've been practicing identifying all these thoughts/experiences as a story, and reminding myself to let go of the story. That's been helpful but not really resulted in throwing anything overboard to be honest.

Can you give me any pointers on how to let go of it and get a clean slate? I'm definitely ready to go deep.

Thanks!
Moss

[poshgeek]

​Yes, I'll give you pointers and I'll also let you know, if I feel you’re steering back into the old direction. About the throwing: maybe I didn’t put that exactly right. There’s not even anything to do - just leave it and focus on the new experiences. Like this first exercise.

Lately I've been practicing identifying all these thoughts/experiences as a story, and reminding myself to let go of the story.

About the exercises:
For exercises find a quiet spot where you are undisturbed. Take your time. Observe and then describe to me, what you have observed. Focus on what you perceive with your senses, you emotions and the thoughts that come up with the exercise ( = direct experience) but ignore everything that you already knew before the exercise.

First Exercise:
Sit and observe what is, when you do nothing. Just experience what is, what you see, hear, feel, and also and especially the thoughs. This time just observe them and don’t do anything - not even let them go!
Also observe your expectations about this little exercise. What do you think should happen? Bliss? Stillness? No thoughts?
What do you find?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Love, Sarah

[Wildlichen]

Ok!

First exercise.

I'm aware of the cool air on my feet. The sense of my feet in space, but also it feels diffuse, as if there's no real boundary between feet and space.
Then worried thoughts about doing it "right" start - should I be typing as each experience arises,or write about it afterwards?
Then awareness of my feet again, briefly, before the narrative voice kicks in with trying to phrase how I'll communicate this, and trying to remember it all, so I decide to write it down in real time.
Awareness of body sensations. The breath in my nostrils. The sensations inside my mouth. Feels like my body is melting, that diffuse sensation again.
Thoughts about my plans later today.
The hum of the fridge.
The warmth and vibration of my cat purring on my lap.
Tension and concerned thoughts about if I'm doing this right.
Annoyance at myself for being concerned.
Deeper breaths.
Some moments of inner silence.
Desire to finish my cup of coffee. The aftertaste of coffee in my mouth.
Deep slow breaths.
The hum of the fridge, the warmth of the cat.
Thoughts describing my experience.
A wave of sexual arousal, unrelated to any thoughts, arising out of nowhere, swiftly followed by some mild anxiety about writing it down.
Silence.
Physical tension as if trying to hold onto the silence and trying to stay there.
A sigh.
Wondering if something special is supposed to happen. Amusement at myself for that, because I know that's not the point.
Softness under my feet.
Background noises.
Deep breaths.
Thoughts wondering how long to do this for.
Sense of my body in space, the sensation of the couch supporting me. Breathing. The sensations in my fingers from typing.
Mild sadness aching in my chest.
Wondering when to stop. Tension in my shoulders. My jaw tightens. Thoughts about not doing this well enough.
Release of tension.
Extended silence. Looking around the room, seeing the colours and objects, the light glinting off the kettle.
Tension in my shoulders. Silence.

Looking forward to hearing your guidance from here, and thanks for your support.
Moss

[poshgeek]

Moss, wow, nice observing! Thank you for being so honest. I can see you have a sense of humor towards the "talk show radio host" voice in your head. Good :)

It’s ok to go through the whole exercise and then write down what you can still remember. Or write it down in real time - whatever suits you best. Your doing great. Leave the worrying to me.

Definition
Sometimes a (re-)definition of words is necessary so that we understand each other exactly.
Direct experience: is what you perceive with your senses, see, hear, smell, taste, touch and bodily sensations. Also your emotions and the thoughts that come up with it. But not follow up thoughts like interpretations, previous experience, things you read or heard.
For the purpose of this inquiry, do you agree to this definition?

And now let’s jump right into the next exercise.

Exercise
Where do your thoughts come from?
Sit and explore. For the moment ignore any thought content, just observe the process of thinking itself. Where do thoughts come from? Can you know your next thought? Can you know when it will come? What influenced the thoughts that showed up?

If you feel like you’re about covered the topic :) go to part two of the exercise:
Pick one thought, name it, and try to figure out, what could possibly have triggered this specific thought. Do this with a few thoughts.
Are there different types or categories of thoughts, sorted by content or origin?
Explain your findings to me.


Happy hunting!

Love, Sarah

[Wildlichen]

Hi Sarah,

Yes, I agree with that definition. Please let me know if you see me straying out of direct experience.

I feel very restless and distracted today, and it's been difficult to make myself sit quietly and do the exercise, but here's what I have.

Where do thoughts come from?

They don't seem to come from anywhere. It seems as if they spontaneously arise.

Can you know your next thought?

No. Sometimes they follow on from each other, but often the content seems random and unrelated to previous thoughts.

Can you know when it will come?

No. Sometimes they come very quick, sometimes there are lengthy pauses where no thoughts arise. The process seems quite unpredictable.

What influenced the thoughts that showed up?

Some were about the current circumstances of my life - plans for later in the day for example. Some were more unexpected, such as thinking about friends I haven't seen in a while. Quite a few thoughts about the exercise itself.


Part 2:
In my current state of restlessless, I found it very difficult to do part 2. I'll try again later, but in the meantime, I found a couple of different categories: planning thoughts and memories. Both were related to feeling uncomfortable with being present and wanting to do something else. Currently discomfort seems to be the driving force behind the thoughts.

Thanks!
Moss

[poshgeek]

Moss, you're doing really well! Just relax for now and do the rest when you feel more calm.


But I'd like to point point out something interesting:
I asked you to agree on the definition of "direct experience". I never asked you to always be in "direct experience". Can you see how your mind made that part up? Scroll back and read it again. Am I right?

So, just to say it out loud: this is great! You did nothing wrong here! I'm not telling you off, I'm telling you that this wonderful. You can study how your mind works with this example. See how starting with the direct experience of seeing the definition I wrote, you end up with feeling you need to always be in direct experience. What happened, what do you observe? How would you describe it?


Thanks for trusting me <3

Love, Sarah

[Wildlichen]

Hi Sarah,

Ah yes, I see what you mean. I meant "let me know if I'm straying from direct experience in my answers to the exercises ", rather than in general.

But regardless, what you say is true - I do assume that it must be done constantly and perfectly, so thanks for your reflection. I'll do that part 2 once I've settled down a bit.
Thanks,
Moss

[Wildlichen]

Hi Sarah,

Things are feeling kind of difficult currently. I haven't been able to formally do the exercise as I have a bad headache (on and off for 6 days now), but I'm watching the quality of my thinking most of the time. My thoughts feel very tense, as if they are a vise-like grip that's causing the headache. Lots of circular thinking, often self-sttacking thoughts. Making any kind of decision in my practical life is almost impossible and just leads to endless circular thinking. The quality of both the thinking and my observation of the thinking feels very rigid and heavy handed, but I can't seem to lighten the grip and let it be.

So that's where I'm at right now. Any advice on how to move forward would be great.
Thanks,
Moss

[poshgeek]

To be a little dramatic for once:
Self knows that this process is going to end with the death of self. Self doesn‘t want to die. So self tries to distract you. It’s perfectly normal.

The good thing is: there’s no right way to do it. If you can concentrate for 2 minutes, do the exercise for 2 minutes. If you have one tiny little insight - write to me and we’ll take it from there. If not, try again the next day. Just please don’t give up. Those distractions mean it’s working!

I also suggest you focus your energy. With always trying to watch your thoughts, you’re spreading yourself too thin. Why don’t you let go of that during this process? Consider 2 distinct states: during exercise you concentrate and observe everything full strength. And during the rest of the time you relax, let go, recharge, try to not observe but just be. What do you think?

Love, Sarah