I

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. So I'm guessing the role of all these thoughts creates the self. Well maybe it doesn't create the self because they are just thoughts.

This is good to focus on.

What is that 'self' beyond various ideas about one?

And yet everything happens anyway.

What about that? What makes things happen?


All best,

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

What is that 'self' beyond various ideas about one?

I don't find it. There isn't one beyond ideas.

And yet everything happens anyway.

What about that? What makes things happen?

It is perplexing. I have no idea how or why things happen. I can't grab hold of it. The stress seems to be in trying to manage it.

Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

What is that 'self' beyond various ideas about one?
I don't find it. There isn't one beyond ideas.

OK. Good.

What makes things happen?
It is perplexing. I have no idea how or why things happen. I can't grab hold of it. The stress seems to be in trying to manage it.

Who or what is experiencing 'stress'?

Its a serious question. This is not to deny that there can be uncomfortable sensations and thoughts about 'the stress of trying to manage'. But where is the 'manager'?

Lets explore this issue of what makes things happen with one or two exercises? This can be revealing.

It is often said that 'I decide' or 'I choose' and it is assumed that something called 'me' or 'self' makes these.

Here is a test for 'choice' :

Place both your hands palm down in front of you on a table. In a minute one hand must be raised into the air above your head whilst the other one must stay where it is on the table. It doesn't matter how this happens but one hand must get raised.

Watch for the 'choice point', the exact moment that you notice the choice being made and raising the hand. Is it possible to see a choice-point, the choice being made? Is that what makes the hand go up?

all the best,

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

Who or what is experiencing 'stress'?

It is like 'stress' is just happening.

This is not to deny that there can be uncomfortable sensations and thoughts about 'the stress of trying to manage'. But where is the 'manager'?

There is no 'manager'. It is just thoughts upon thoughts about controlling life.

Watch for the 'choice point', the exact moment that you notice the choice being made and raising the hand. Is it possible to see a choice-point, the choice being made? Is that what makes the hand go up?

I did this a couple of times. It doesn't seem to happen at the exact time with the choice in the mind. When this 'choice' happens in the mind it does not make the hand go up. Even the thought to decide to raise it now, I don't know what decided when that should happen or how the thought even arose. When the hand raises seems to happen on its own.

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee

. There is no 'manager'. It is just thoughts upon thoughts about controlling life.

Ooo! That's good. Thoughts ABOUT controlling.

. I did this a couple of times. It doesn't seem to happen at the exact time with the choice in the mind. When this 'choice' happens in the mind it does not make the hand go up. Even the thought to decide to raise it now, I don't know what decided when that should happen or how the thought even arose. When the hand raises seems to happen on its own.

Good work Renee. Very good.

How does it feel to see this?

Look for 'self' right now. Is there one, anywhere in experience?

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

There is no 'manager'. It is just thoughts upon thoughts about controlling life.

When this 'choice' happens in the mind it does not make the hand go up. Even the thought to decide to raise it now, I don't know what decided when that should happen or how the thought even arose. When the hand raises seems to happen on its own.

How does it feel to see this?

It feels freeing. The judgment and worry thoughts come up but there isn’t as much concern when they are seen as uncontrollable thoughts. There is less fear. It’s wierd feeling out of control. Really out of control. But something about it feels normal and relaxing. It’s still hard to believe it really could all be happening on its own.

Look for 'self' right now. Is there one, anywhere in experience?

There is not a ‘self’. ‘Self’ is a bunch of thoughts. The experience is thoughts about a ‘self’.

What about referencing even the noticing and awareness as who I am? You helped me see noticing is just happening like everything else is just happening. What about everything as who I really am?

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

It feels freeing. The judgment and worry thoughts come up but there isn’t as much concern when they are seen as uncontrollable thoughts. There is less fear. It’s wierd feeling out of control. Really out of control. But something about it feels normal and relaxing. It’s still hard to believe it really could all be happening on its own.

How wonderful!

You might notice that there are times when judgement and worry thoughts do appear...and get believed in for a while, like dreaming that there is a 'real me', like a real victim in a story of whatever thought happens to be 'talking' about?

But is it seen that 'waking up' from believing such thoughts also happens?

Is there control over this waking?

What about referencing even the noticing and awareness as who I am? You helped me see noticing is just happening like everything else is just happening. What about everything as who I really am?

A good question.

Does it seem that the 'noticing' and 'everything' appear together?

Did I ask you to go for a walk in nature to explore this? If not, I must do this now. Let me know?

What about everything as who I really am?

Is there an 'I' that is separate from 'everything'? Is there an 'everything' that is separate from 'I'?

Love

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

You might notice that there are times when judgement and worry thoughts do appear...and get believed in for a while, like dreaming that there is a 'real me', like a real victim in a story of whatever thought happens to be 'talking' about?

But is it seen that 'waking up' from believing such thoughts also happens?

Is there control over this waking?

Yes, believing in them happens at times, but it seems to last only momentarily as the 'waking up' just happens. Right, no control with that.

Does it seem that the 'noticing' and 'everything' appear together?

Did I ask you to go for a walk in nature to explore this? If not, I must do this now. Let me know?

I explored this on a walk in nature. Yes, 'noticing' and 'everything' seem to appear together. It's like they are the same.

Is there an 'I' that is separate from 'everything'? Is there an 'everything' that is separate from 'I'?

If I use 'I' to replace ‘noticing’ then ‘I’ and 'everything' seem the same. It seems at some point no words!

Thank you Jon,
Renee

[JonathanR]

hi Renee,

Ok. Thank you.

Can you say with a big fat 'Yes' that the illusion of a separate self is seen through?

Do you have any doubts? If so now would be a good time to mention them.

Thanks,

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

I had wrote “it seems at some point no words” because words were losing significance when I looked at your question about separation. It seemed no word could be used to describe.

I need more time with your questions.

Thank you so much,
Renee

[springwater]

Jon,

I am so grateful for our dialogue thank you so much Jon.

Can you say with a big fat 'Yes' that the illusion of a separate self is seen through?

Do you have any doubts? If so now would be a good time to mention them.

It is a big fat ‘Yes’ the illusion of a separate self is seen through.

There are doubt thoughts...insistent like there’s a subtle war. There is back and forth in believing, not believing. There are thoughts about ‘it’s not going to last, losing focus, this can’t be right...’.

But the seeing these as just uncontrollable thoughts seems to dispel even the ones previously believed.

There are thoughts that it is precarious and it’s important for it to be cultivated?

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

. It is a big fat ‘Yes’ the illusion of a separate self is seen through.

Yay! Great!

. I am so grateful for our dialogue thank you so much Jon.

Me too Renee. It has been a pleasure.

. But the seeing these as just uncontrollable thoughts seems to dispel even the ones previously believed.

And this is really only a beginning.

. There are thoughts that it is precarious and it’s important for it to be cultivated?

Notice that sort of thought. It can be imagined that no self is some kind of state that needs to be cultivated or maintained.

Is it?


Love

Jon

[springwater]

Hi Jon,

There are thoughts that it is precarious and it’s important for it to be cultivated?

Notice that sort of thought. It can be imagined that no self is some kind of state that needs to be cultivated or maintained.

Is it?

It is clear no self is not a state and doesn't need to be maintained or cultivated.

These thoughts are referring to the ‘waking’ and believing in ‘me’ times. There is an idea that without continuing to focus after this dialogue it could slide back to more and more believing in ‘me’.

Thank you,
Renee

[JonathanR]

Hi Renee,

These thoughts are referring to the ‘waking’ and believing in ‘me’ times. There is an idea that without continuing to focus after this dialogue it could slide back to more and more believing in ‘me’.

Yes. To be honest that thought appeared here too for a while. And believing in 'me' can happen many many times and be seen through thousands of times. I can only talk from 'my' experience and say that there was a gradual settling back into a kind of sofa of not doubting, but it does seems to have deepened.

I chose to try guiding and interestingly, the challenge of pointing towards no self for others helped clarity to grow.

Also, we do have an aftercare group for those who have recently seen no self. That can be useful at times. There is a growing community too.

Ok Renee, I'd like to ask you six questions now. Please have a go at answering them all but feel free to answer, say, three at a time.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

All best,

Jon

[springwater]

Jon,

I’ve been sick for a couple days but I’ve been working on it a little bit.

In gratitude,
Renee