Who's Next?

[Trevor]

I'm here to help if anyone is ready to take a look.

[jimbo14]

I spent some time on the site two weeks ago and experienced what I thought was transcendence of the self. Today, I seem to have gone back to where I was before visiting the site. Perhaps some one on one would help.

[Trevor]

Hi Jimbo14!

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your message. I'd be very happy to help you. Before we start it's good to agree on a couple of 'terms and conditions' before we kick off.

1.When I ask you a question promise to take your time to respond as truthfully and thoroughly as you can. Agree to give everything and commit to finding out the truth of the situation.

2.It seems to help if you agree to stop reading other stuff on this topic or listening or watching other things about it just for as long as we're working together, as this helps to be able focus on what is being pointed to here.

3.Let's agree to try to post and reply to each other at least once a day. I'm in the UK so I might not be in your time zone but we should be able to respond within 12 hours.

So if you agree to all this small print let's get cracking!

Tell me, do you exist as a separate individual self?

Describe in detail what come up when you consider this question. Take your time. If necessary consider it several times, at different points in the day to be sure you get a good feel for it.

Best,

Trevor

Also, I'm fine with Jimbo14 but if you feel like it you can tell me your real name.

[jimbo14]

Hi Trevor,
My name is Jim, thanks for taking me on.
The separate individual self seems to appear when in conversation with another individual, but not always. The individual self appears if I think that may have said something that another views as inappropriate. It also can appear if I realize that an opinion I expressed in the past, was not really accurate.

[Trevor]

Hi Jim,

We need to get as concrete, specific and forensic as possible. What is this individual self that sometimes appears in conversation or when you expressed inaccurate opinions? Describe it in detail please.

Isbit a thought or a feeling? Can you locate it anywhere in the body?

Tell me as much about what this apparent separate individual self feels like as you can please.

[jimbo14]

Hi, Trevor,

It seems to be a thought, which generates a feeling.

Behind both the thought and feeling is the concern “What will people think of me”.

This may sound strange, but this concern is not located in the body, it seems to be a transparent or translucent cloud that has no mass, about two or three feet in diameter located around or partially behind my head and shoulders.

When I focus on it, it seems to dissipate and center in my head and shoulders.

Just now, I had the concern that I may be sounding like a wacko; this concern caused the separate individual self to manifest or be experienced.

[Trevor]

Great work Jim.

Don't worry about sounding like a whacko, you'rein good company - there are 6 billion of us and counting.

So let's break this down.

You described this sense of an individual self as a thought and a feeling.

And behind the initial thought and feeling is another thought 'what will people think of me?' which feels like it's located in the head area.

I want you to look at what is behind this though and associted feeling.
Is there anything behind it?
Does it belong to anyone or anything?
Where does it come from?
Does this thought or feeling do anything?

[jimbo14]

Hi Trevor,

Answering your questions in the order they were presented:
There is nothing behind this thought and associated feeling.
It doesn’t belong to anyone or anything.
I don’t know where it comes from.
What this thought or feeling does is provide a sense of self, but this opens up a problem.

If one goes through life with no sense of self, won’t this result in going through life willy nilly with no self respect?

Won’t going through life with no self respect destroy any possibility of maintaining a credible reputation among friends and in society?

Am I allowed to ask questions?

[Trevor]

This good stuff, Jim. You're coming along nicely.

Absolutely fine to have questions Jim. I'd ask you to put them to the side for the moment and then afterwards we can come back to t hem.

However in this case what I aim to do here on this thread with you is to point to and investigate is the fact that you have always been going through life with no self. There has never been a self, none whatsoever. As a separate individual you have never existed. No separate individual selves have ever existed anywhere. So if this is the case you can see how such questions as these lose their point.
"If one goes through life with no sense of self, won’t this result in going through life willy nilly with no self respect?
Won’t going through life with no self respect destroy any possibility of maintaining a credible reputation among friends and in society? "

Seen in the light of there never having been a self these questions are like asking what will happen if you go through life with or without a sense of Father Christmas. Either way there is no actual Father Christmas.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves. I'd suggest we put these questions aside for now. We can alway some back to them later if it's still necessary.

Right now, we need to continue to investigate further this 'sense of self'. See if it actually points to anything real like a chair or just something made up like Father Christmas.

Now you've already seen that the sense of self IS simply a thought and/or a feeling. It belongs to no one and it comes from nowhere. And there is nothing behind it.

You also said it tends to come up in conversations with other people or when you think you've said something wrong. Lets look at why. Can you have a look at what this thought or feeling is trying to do in these situations? Why does it come up then? Is their something it's trying to protect? Maybe even ask it. 'What are you trying to do?' 'Are you trying to defend anything'. Sit and wait for the answer and see what comes up.

[jimbo14]

Trevor, your paragraph that begins “However in this case” was good. It cuts to the bottom line.

It seems that when I am told something with authority, as you have done, the light shines through.

I am now aware that this thought or feeling comes up to defend a nonexistent sense of self.

The problem I face is that the nonexistent self has been my sense of self since birth and eradicating my sense of self is like a form of psychological or psychic suicide. It appears that the obstacle to my liberation is a lack of the resolve necessary to commit a total, complete psychological suicide.

Perhaps I am being overly dramatic. I look forward to your response.

[Trevor]

Good work again Jim.

"I am now aware that this thought or feeling comes up to defend a nonexistent sense of self." Excellent work.
Now, can you stop the self thought or feeling coming up?
Does it have any agency?
Can it do anything?

As for the problem you say you face - there is simply and categorically no need to change or eradicate anything whatsoever. Psychological suicide doesn't come into it and yes, I have to say I think you are being a touch over dramatic!

Here's a question for you. I don't know if you ever believed in Father Christmas, but does seeing that Father Christmas is just an idea that refers to no-one real require you in any way to eradicate the idea of Father Christmas? Or stop you being able to talk about him with little children?

What about unicorns? If you'd come to me believing they were real but then realised they were in fact fictional, would you then have to do anything else? Or is the seeing that they're fictional enough?

Secondly, is it true "that the nonexistent self has been my sense of self since birth"? Look at this for a while. Do you know since when you've believed this idea of having a separate individual self?

Take your time with these questions. Sit with them for a bit if necessary. Be completely honest and get back to me when you're ready.

[jimbo14]

Trevor,
I spent some time contemplating the things you suggested and have arrived at the conclusion that my introductory statement to you may have been misleading or misinterpreted.

I had experienced liberation for about two weeks, but on the particular day I introduced myself, I had drifted back into the experience of a separate self. Whether or not it is uncommon to drift back into illusion, I don’t know, but that is my occasional and hopefully infrequent experience.

Currently, I am experiencing what I believe to be liberation.

I have had prolonged periods of liberation, but as soon as the world did not behave precisely how I wanted it to, the separate self appeared. In my opinion, there is a distinct correlation between experiencing liberation and unconditionally accepting the situations and circumstances that the world presents.

After our one on one began, I simply went along; only today did I clearly realize that we were operating under the assumption that I had never experienced liberation.

If you believe that our one on one should be discontinued or if it should be continued in another context or wish to suggest other alternatives, I’ll await your response.

[Trevor]

Ok Jim. It's all really up to you if we continue or not. For the purposes of our one on one your liberation should become clear in the answers to the questions I ask you. And then we can look at the issue of stabilisation. For my part, if we continue I have to be clear that you have in fact seen 'no self' and passed through the 'gateless gate' as it were anyway. That should be fairly obvious from your answersmto the questions in my posts. Then we can look at after care as it were and the issue of what drifts backwards and forwards etc.

So can we cut to the chase and may I ask you to just go back to the questions in my previous post and give me your honest answers to them? Then we can move on.

[jimbo14]

Trevor, out of courtesy to you and your patience with me, I’ll answer your questions. But as they say in congressional hearings; I would like to preface your questions with a brief statement.

Prior to visiting the LU site, I was somewhat convinced that the self was an illusion from reading the Neuroscience material. Reading the material on the LU site and viewing the videos was sufficient to push me over the top.

I believe what caused a relapse into illusion was a subtle rejection from an acquaintance on the day that I responded to your question “Whose Next”. Since then, well that was explained in my previous post. My response to your questions follows:

>Now, can you stop the self thought or feeling coming up? < There is no one to stop any thought or feeling from appearing in awareness.

>Does it have any agency? < There is no one who wills them into existence. I became aware of this a while back when meditating; thoughts simply appear and are not willed into existence.

Can it do anything? Thoughts can do nothing, unless they are believed or given energy.

Knowing that Father Christmas and Unicorns do not exist is sufficient. This does not prevent one from discussing these illusions with children.

I believe that I recall the moment the separate self was born. As a small child, prior to the separate self being born, I was conditioned to accept my parent’s words as supreme authority and never question them. I was not allowed to leave our yard and play with other children.

One day, at about age four, I presented arguments that convinced them that I was old enough to leave the yard and play with other children. As I recall, this was my first experience of self confidence and gave birth to the illusion of a separate self. After that cultural conditioning filled the bottle and put a cork in it.

Trevor, as you requested total honesty with me at the beginning of this one on one; if you feel that I am not ready for the gate, I’m asking for your honesty in telling me why.

[Trevor]

Thanks for your answers Jim.

It's not a case of my feeling you're not ready for the gate so much as not having enough to go on yet to make a call.

I need you to be sure. And for that I need to read your clear, confident, without-a-doubt description of no self. Someone saying "I am liberated" tells me little but detailed answers of their experience in reply to my questions can tell me a lot and can also help them to clarify the seeing.

One of the premises of how LU works is that once you've seen "no self" then you've seen it. It's clear. No doubt. There's no relapsing, or "unseeing" of it. Now that is just a premise, it's not an absolute law of nature.

It's good to hear that you feel you are now clear about no self. And if you're not 100% certain, if there is still any lingering doubt then it sounds like you're very close.

So I want to ask you some final questions. Hopefully answering them will either be confirmation for us both that you're home free through the Gateless Gate. Or they'll be the final push you need.

So Jim, tell me as you see it

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

2) Explain in detail what the self is and how it works.

3) How does it feel to be liberated?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about "no you"?