Take two!

[Bobf]

Does thought and attention really arise at that place?
Can that be observed?
When looking at an apple, is the thought "apple" located inside those head sensations?
Can that actually be observed?
Or is it another thought telling a story about "it seems that thinking and attending arise in the same place as those sensations"?

Where is thought located?
Does it have a location in- and of itself?
How is it known that thought has a location in the first place? By another thought telling so?

My most honest answer is that I'm not sure where thoughts arise. On the one hand, thoughts/images are fleeting and they seems to have no location. However, If I close my eyes and try to visualize an object (e.g. An apple), It sometimes seems like its hanging in space in front of my head or perhaps inside my head. But maybe the reason it seems that way is that I'm conditioned to believe that things that I see are in front of my eyes.

The other reason this is sticky for me is that when I do try to visualize something, there is sometimes a tensing of the head region, as if the head is "doing" the visualization or thinking.

But all of what I'm saying above seems to be a jumbled mixture of LOOKING, thoughts and past conditioning. Gets kind of confusing!

Bob

Bob

[Matthew]

I'll be back tomorrow
Have a nice Sunday!

[Matthew]

But all of what I'm saying above seems to be a jumbled mixture of LOOKING, thoughts and past conditioning. Gets kind of confusing!

It is confusing as long as there is an effort to understand all this intellectually.
But it was clearly seen already that all of this apparent confusion is a product of past conditioning and resulting beliefs.
This is the most important step! The conditioning, the beliefs can seem to be strong.
They can even seem to be so strong, that there arises a new belief of "I'll never overcome those beliefs".
But if they're seen for what they are, they'll become meaningsless all by themselves.
And they will start to fall away all by themselves.

... when I do try to visualize something, there is sometimes a tensing of the head region, as if the head is "doing" the visualization or thinking.

How is it known that a a sensation labeled "tensing of the head region" has anything to do with visualisation or thinking?
Because a thought says so?

Does that count as hard evidence?

Is anything doing the visualisation?
Look a little closer.
What can be found when looking for that apparent doer?

Some actual thing? Or no thing at all?

[Bobf]

... won't be able to answer tonight, but will tomorrow. Bob

[Bobf]

It is confusing as long as there is an effort to understand all this intellectually.
But it was clearly seen already that all of this apparent confusion is a product of past conditioning and resulting beliefs.
This is the most important step! The conditioning, the beliefs can seem to be strong.
They can even seem to be so strong, that there arises a new belief of "I'll never overcome those beliefs".
But if they're seen for what they are, they'll become meaningsless all by themselves.
And they will start to fall away all by themselves.

That's reassuring!

... when I do try to visualize something, there is sometimes a tensing of the head region, as if the head is "doing" the visualization or thinking.
How is it known that a sensation labeled "tensing of the head region" has anything to do with visualisation or thinking?
Because a thought says so?
Does that count as hard evidence?

It certainly doesn't! I'm a scientist, and just because the "head tensing" happens at the same time as the attempt to visualize, it doesn't mean that it causes it.

Is anything doing the visualisation?
Look a little closer.
What can be found when looking for that apparent doer?
Some actual thing? Or no thing at all?

I tried this with mental arithmetic, because the thinking process lasts longer than a fleeting image. Here's what happened:
1. The thought arose that I should multiple 14 X 8
2. A visualization of the problem arose (as if I were doing it on paper)
3. Calculations happened (accompanied by a slight "head tensing/focusing") and then the answer appeared.

No doer can be found - just thoughts and images.

Bob

[Matthew]

It certainly doesn't! I'm a scientist, and just because the "head tensing" happens at the same time as the attempt to visualize, it doesn't mean that it causes it.

Yes. Because where does the information originate from, that the tensing has anything to do with the visualisation?
It comes from thought.
This whole illusion seems to be self-sealing for some reason..

I tried this with mental arithmetic, because the thinking process lasts longer than a fleeting image. Here's what happened:
1. The thought arose that I should multiple 14 X 8
2. A visualization of the problem arose (as if I were doing it on paper)
3. Calculations happened (accompanied by a slight "head tensing/focusing") and then the answer appeared.

Great!
So multiplication happened, visualisation happened, calculations happened.
What role does "I" play within for example the multiplication?
14 x 8. So far so good.
Where is "I" in that? It's simply not there, is it.
"I multiply 14 x 8".
Can "I" do that? Could "O" do that? Or "U"?
"E multiply 14 x 8"
Does that make sense?


Being highly intellectual can appear as a hindrance. But this is only apparently so.
Like that:

This is the story of a man, who is too smart to see through this.


Another way of saying it would be:

You are dreaming right now of being a man, who is too smart to see through this.


Does that ring a bell?

[Bobf]

Great!
So multiplication happened, visualisation happened, calculations happened.
What role does "I" play within for example the multiplication?
14 x 8. So far so good.
Where is "I" in that? It's simply not there, is it.
"I multiply 14 x 8".
Can "I" do that? Could "O" do that? Or "U"?
"E multiply 14 x 8"
Does that make sense?


Being highly intellectual can appear as a hindrance. But this is only apparently so.
Like that:
This is the story of a man, who is too smart to see through this.
Another way of saying it would be:
You are dreaming right now of being a man, who is too smart to see through this.
Does that ring a bell?

Yes, I see that the multiplication is just happening and I can't find a doer. And yes, I see what you mean about the man being a dream.

Bob

[Matthew]

Throughout the day, whenever 'negative' thoughts come up, observe this:

1. An unpleasant thought arises. Something nasty. Something that really shouldn't be there...
2. On the foot follows a second thought:
"I want this to go away" or "I want to think of something else" or "I don't want to think at all right now"


Have YOU brought up the first, the negative thought? Or did it appear all by itself? As it often does.
Have YOU brought up the second thought? Or did it arise all by itself? As it always does as a response to unpleasant thoughts.

Look at this chain of thoughts thoroughly. What can be observed?


Do you have any influence on the appearance or non-appearance of these thoughts?

[Bobf]

Have YOU brought up the first, the negative thought? Or did it appear all by itself? As it often does.
Have YOU brought up the second thought? Or did it arise all by itself? As it always does as a response to unpleasant thoughts.

Look at this chain of thoughts thoroughly. What can be observed?
Do you have any influence on the appearance or non-appearance of these thoughts?

I'm a zen meditator. When a negative thought arises (its clear to me that this happens all by itself), what "I" sometimes do is watch the thought disappear and, rather than obsessing about it, bring attention to the body.

I suppose that there's really no "I" who decides to bring attention to the body - just like the original thought, this happens spontaneously. However the belief often arises that "I" can make an effort and choose how I react to a negative thought.

Bob

[Matthew]

And now you have the tools to check exactly that. To check if that's true or not.

If this happens again. A negative thought arises and there is an effort for choosing how to react.
Observe these events like a hawk. What happens. Frame by frame.
You can also kind of "zoom in" if you can work with this image.
Just look at what presents itself.


Where does the effort originate from?
Can that what makes an effort be found?

Look closer.

What is behind that what apparently makes an effort?
Is there something? A real somewhat making choices? Or just more thoughts?

Is there actually a thing or a one making choices?
Or is ALL of this just another chain of thoughts following the negative one?

[Bobf]

If this happens again. A negative thought arises and there is an effort for choosing how to react.
Observe these events like a hawk. What happens. Frame by frame.
You can also kind of "zoom in" if you can work with this image.
Just look at what presents itself

Not sure what image you're referring to? I understand what you're saying though and will try it.

Where does the effort originate from?
Can that what makes an effort be found?
Look closer.
What is behind that what apparently makes an effort?
Is there something? A real somewhat making choices? Or just more thoughts?
Is there actually a thing or a one making choices?
Or is ALL of this just another chain of thoughts following the negative one?

Will try this next time this happens!

[Matthew]

The image of ... As if you would "zoom in" on a thought while observing it.
Like a film camera zooms in on the detail of a scene.

[Bobf]

The image of ... As if you would "zoom in" on a thought while observing it.
Like a film camera zooms in on the detail of a scene.

OK, I get it. I've been trying this and will report back.

Bob

[Bobf]

I just realized I forgot to post yesterday - my apologies, there was alot going on. I was doing the exercises though.

If this happens again. A negative thought arises and there is an effort for choosing how to react.
Observe these events like a hawk. What happens. Frame by frame.
You can also kind of "zoom in" if you can work with this image.
Just look at what presents itself.
Where does the effort originate from?
Can that what makes an effort be found?
Look closer.
What is behind that what apparently makes an effort?
Is there something? A real somewhat making choices? Or just more thoughts?
Is there actually a thing or a one making choices?
Or is ALL of this just another chain of thoughts following the negative one?

I did try to do this exercise. It was difficult, because its hard to predict when a negative thought will arise and, when it does, the chain of events happens quickly and spontaneously, so hard to observe. But when I did, it did seem like the whole thing was happening spontaneously without anyone controlling it.

I think I am making progress in seeing this during the day. The idea that there is a controller still arises, but it seems flimsier.

Bob

[Matthew]

Do you create the idea of a controller yourself? Consciously, willingly?
Or do thoughts about "There is still an idea of a controller" -again- arise by themselves?

Please observe this!