Hi Diane,
I understand why you might feel despondent - it comes from having a faulty idea of what success looks like, which is inevitable really.
However, I don't feel remotely despondent. From my point of view you are still doing really well. And honestly, this is not just constitutional optimism or something - guiding other people I have sometimes been at my wits end, and felt completely stuck :-)
I had a general anaesthetic today (hernia day surgery) so I don't feel able to reply fully just now, a bit too woozy. But if you have a moment to look into presence and separation some more, it would not be time wasted...
Best wishes
Perry
Stuck in the mud
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Perry
Thank you for your very kind post. I hope you are feeling ok after your surgery and I understand you need some recovery time and lots of rest.
I will continue to pondering ‘presence’ and ‘separation’. I was pondering in the early hours when I was awake this morning and again during today. When I look at direct experience is still feels as if there is awareness of ‘doing’ and awareness of ‘experience’ and that there is a ‘me’ that is watching over the experience as it is happening. It’s as if I am ‘experiencing’ whilst being ‘present’ at the ‘experience’. I have an understanding that ‘experience’ is just happening but this is not backed up by a real knowing that there is only ‘experience’ and not ‘experience’ and ‘separation’. I can ‘experience’ but then up pops up my ‘presence’ that is there to.
I am not expecting you to post and will continue to ponder the next few days.
Hope you feel better soon.
Best wishes
Diane
Thank you for your very kind post. I hope you are feeling ok after your surgery and I understand you need some recovery time and lots of rest.
I will continue to pondering ‘presence’ and ‘separation’. I was pondering in the early hours when I was awake this morning and again during today. When I look at direct experience is still feels as if there is awareness of ‘doing’ and awareness of ‘experience’ and that there is a ‘me’ that is watching over the experience as it is happening. It’s as if I am ‘experiencing’ whilst being ‘present’ at the ‘experience’. I have an understanding that ‘experience’ is just happening but this is not backed up by a real knowing that there is only ‘experience’ and not ‘experience’ and ‘separation’. I can ‘experience’ but then up pops up my ‘presence’ that is there to.
I am not expecting you to post and will continue to ponder the next few days.
Hope you feel better soon.
Best wishes
Diane
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Diane,
Perry
So the 'presence' is not always there, it has to pop up into being?I can ‘experience’ but then up pops up my ‘presence’ that is there to.
Perry
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Perry
The ‘presence’ does seem to ‘pop’ into being. When I pay attention to ‘experience’ in direct pointing there is a ‘presence’ of a ‘me’. At other times I am not always aware of a ‘presence’ perhaps because I am on automatic pilot or just ‘doing’. But is this ‘presence’ or ‘me-ness’ a function and a part of how experience happens and will always be in experience? That it is not to do with the ‘self’ but more an awareness of experience happening? That it is neither a view, a label, a thought, or a feeling but part of direct experience.
Could an example be that ‘I am walking’ be ‘just walking’ and ‘presence’ is the awareness of the experience that isn’t a ‘self’ or and ‘I’?
So my post has questions that I haven’t been able to answer and I am not sure if I have gone in the wrong direction!
Best wishes
Diane
The ‘presence’ does seem to ‘pop’ into being. When I pay attention to ‘experience’ in direct pointing there is a ‘presence’ of a ‘me’. At other times I am not always aware of a ‘presence’ perhaps because I am on automatic pilot or just ‘doing’. But is this ‘presence’ or ‘me-ness’ a function and a part of how experience happens and will always be in experience? That it is not to do with the ‘self’ but more an awareness of experience happening? That it is neither a view, a label, a thought, or a feeling but part of direct experience.
Could an example be that ‘I am walking’ be ‘just walking’ and ‘presence’ is the awareness of the experience that isn’t a ‘self’ or and ‘I’?
So my post has questions that I haven’t been able to answer and I am not sure if I have gone in the wrong direction!
Best wishes
Diane
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Diane,
This seems to be hugely important ... whatever this 'presence' may or may not be, the fact that you can witness its coming into being means that it cannot be a "self", it cannot be "the experiencer", "the decider" or "the thinker". It cannot be fundamental.
Do you agree?
Knowing that the sense of 'presence' comes and goes, does it still feel like 'self'?
There is an exercise that you could try, which may give a good opportunity to explore how this 'presence' pops in and out... in fact, you hinted at it in your last message.
Take any current experience, and see what happens with these two alternative 'commentaries':
best wishes,
Perry
The ‘presence’ does seem to ‘pop’ into being. When I pay attention to ‘experience’ in direct pointing there is a ‘presence’ of a ‘me’. At other times I am not always aware of a ‘presence’ perhaps because I am on automatic pilot or just ‘doing’.
This seems to be hugely important ... whatever this 'presence' may or may not be, the fact that you can witness its coming into being means that it cannot be a "self", it cannot be "the experiencer", "the decider" or "the thinker". It cannot be fundamental.
Do you agree?
Knowing that the sense of 'presence' comes and goes, does it still feel like 'self'?
There is an exercise that you could try, which may give a good opportunity to explore how this 'presence' pops in and out... in fact, you hinted at it in your last message.
Take any current experience, and see what happens with these two alternative 'commentaries':
- 'seeing, seeing' vs 'I am seeing, I am seeing'
- 'feeling, feeling' vs 'I am feeling, I am feeling'
- etc
best wishes,
Perry
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Perry
When ‘seeing’ there is more of a sense of ‘self’ but this could be ‘presence’ or awareness of ‘presence’. This seems to be muddled because ‘just hearing’ is ‘just hearing’ with no ‘self’ hearing. But yet I also feel I know that ‘seeing’ is just ‘seeing’. The ‘presence’ seems very strong in ‘just feeling’. Feelings arise and I think there is an ‘I’ feeling them, especially when unpleasant ones arise. But again I sort of know ‘feelings’ just arise without a ‘self’.
I will ponder ‘presence’ some more.
Best wishes
Diane
It does still feel like a ‘self’ but I am not sure. It could be just awareness of ‘presence’ which I think is ‘self’.Knowing that the sense of 'presence' comes and goes, does it still feel like 'self'?
When ‘seeing’ there is more of a sense of ‘self’ but this could be ‘presence’ or awareness of ‘presence’. This seems to be muddled because ‘just hearing’ is ‘just hearing’ with no ‘self’ hearing. But yet I also feel I know that ‘seeing’ is just ‘seeing’. The ‘presence’ seems very strong in ‘just feeling’. Feelings arise and I think there is an ‘I’ feeling them, especially when unpleasant ones arise. But again I sort of know ‘feelings’ just arise without a ‘self’.
I will ponder ‘presence’ some more.
Best wishes
Diane
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Diane,
Even if the presence feels like a self, if it pops in and out of existence, can it be any more significant than any other passing feeling?
Similarly, if you find that you sometimes think of this as a self, is that thought any more significant than any other passing thought?
Is it really 'special' in any way?
best wishes,
Perry
Even if the presence feels like a self, if it pops in and out of existence, can it be any more significant than any other passing feeling?
Similarly, if you find that you sometimes think of this as a self, is that thought any more significant than any other passing thought?
Is it really 'special' in any way?
best wishes,
Perry
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Perry
I think you are right that ‘presence’ popping in and out of existence is no more significant than any other passing feeling. If I think of this as a ‘self’ that is also a thought and this is no more significant than any other passing thought.
So ‘presence’ feels special, it is the awareness of experience as it is happening. Is awareness the same as ‘presence’ because it does feel like it? But the ‘presence’ could be just experience.
Best wishes
Diane
I think you are right that ‘presence’ popping in and out of existence is no more significant than any other passing feeling. If I think of this as a ‘self’ that is also a thought and this is no more significant than any other passing thought.
I think it has become ‘special’ because I identify the feeling as being a ‘presence’ and sometimes a ‘self’. I still believe it to be so and yet I know that a belief is a belief, which doesn’t mean its true.Is it really ‘special’ in any way?
So ‘presence’ feels special, it is the awareness of experience as it is happening. Is awareness the same as ‘presence’ because it does feel like it? But the ‘presence’ could be just experience.
Best wishes
Diane
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Diane,
Right now (or, at least, once you have settled into looking), while witnessing/knowing this 'presence' to be no more significant than any other thought/feeling .... is there belief in this as self at this time?
If so, how is the belief maintained?
Is the belief, like the presence itself, something that pops in and out?
Don't be afraid to report what is apparent at the time of investigation, even if there is a nagging doubt "but I won't feel like this in 20 minutes time"
Best wishes,
Perry
This is a little confusing to me, perhaps because you are speaking not just from your perspective NOW, but also taking into account how you GENERALLY see/feel?I think it has become ‘special’ because I identify the feeling as being a ‘presence’ and sometimes a ‘self’. I still believe it to be so and yet I know that a belief is a belief, which doesn’t mean its true.
Right now (or, at least, once you have settled into looking), while witnessing/knowing this 'presence' to be no more significant than any other thought/feeling .... is there belief in this as self at this time?
If so, how is the belief maintained?
Is the belief, like the presence itself, something that pops in and out?
Don't be afraid to report what is apparent at the time of investigation, even if there is a nagging doubt "but I won't feel like this in 20 minutes time"
Best wishes,
Perry
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Perry
Sorry for the confusion.
Best wishes
Diane
Sorry for the confusion.
As I sit here typing and looking, the sense of presence or awareness is there but it isn’t any more significant than other thoughts or feelings. But as I write this there is an uncomfortable hot burning sensation around my knees and a ringing in my ears which I label as fear. Because of the fear my belief is that this is ‘self’. The belief continues because of the fear. There is a strong pull to stop looking. I feel empty in my head. I look again and the burning sensations rise up again. The fear arises when I ask myself “is this self”?Right now (or, at least, once you have settled into looking), while witnessing/knowing this 'presence' to be no more significant than any other thought/feeling .... is there belief in this as self at this time?
Best wishes
Diane
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Diane,
Great stuff!
The fear, though uncomfortable, is actually a really good sign that we're starting to touch on some fundamental self-view. Apologies for the discomfort, but this is exactly where we need to be working.
You've noticed a close link between the fear and belief, the way they support each other. This is a really important observation.
You've also noticed what provokes the fear:
That is really good too, because in order to work in this area, you'll need to find your way back to this point at which the fear arises.
So how to proceed?
First, it is important to have a good attitude towards the fear... Fear is not the enemy, it is actually your friend, it is trying to protect "your self" as best it can. This fear is a misguided friend, for sure, but a friend nevertheless. Thank it for looking after you!
It is also very helpful, as you have been doing, to look at the direct experience that makes up the fear, as this reduces its power to overwhelm.
In this light, can you look into the experience and find out:
Perry
Great stuff!
The fear, though uncomfortable, is actually a really good sign that we're starting to touch on some fundamental self-view. Apologies for the discomfort, but this is exactly where we need to be working.
You've noticed a close link between the fear and belief, the way they support each other. This is a really important observation.
You've also noticed what provokes the fear:
when I ask myself “is this self”?
That is really good too, because in order to work in this area, you'll need to find your way back to this point at which the fear arises.
So how to proceed?
First, it is important to have a good attitude towards the fear... Fear is not the enemy, it is actually your friend, it is trying to protect "your self" as best it can. This fear is a misguided friend, for sure, but a friend nevertheless. Thank it for looking after you!
It is also very helpful, as you have been doing, to look at the direct experience that makes up the fear, as this reduces its power to overwhelm.
In this light, can you look into the experience and find out:
- what is the fear protecting? Does what is protected really exist?
- what would happen if what is feared came true?
- what is underneath the fear?
Perry
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Perry
i delayed posting because I didn't know what to say. But as I sit here I can feel the fear burning and prickly sensations in my legs and knees and sadness in my chest. The fear protects me from being lost in a world of madness with thoughts and feelings out of control. I won't know who I am or how to be. Life might be worse than it already is. I feel such sadness. But what it protects already exists in my everyday life. If the fear came true I am afraid I wouldn't cope because it would all be a lot worse than it is.
Underneath the fear is someone not able to cope, someone lost, really alone and so sad.
I will stop for now.
Best wishes
Diane
I have had fear all day today. I couldn't work out what it was till I read your post. I thought it was because I had a hospital appointment but it didn't go away after that. Its been hard to think clearly today and at the hospital I kept wanting to cry as I couldn't concentrate. But even then I couldn't quite work out what it was.what is the fear protecting? Does what is protected really exist?
i delayed posting because I didn't know what to say. But as I sit here I can feel the fear burning and prickly sensations in my legs and knees and sadness in my chest. The fear protects me from being lost in a world of madness with thoughts and feelings out of control. I won't know who I am or how to be. Life might be worse than it already is. I feel such sadness. But what it protects already exists in my everyday life. If the fear came true I am afraid I wouldn't cope because it would all be a lot worse than it is.
Underneath the fear is someone not able to cope, someone lost, really alone and so sad.
I will stop for now.
Best wishes
Diane
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Diane,
Sorry to hear that ... I hope you are coping OK. But I am also quite pleased, because we are definitely onto something here!
This is really interesting, and goes right to the heart of the matter ....
The control that fear is protecting - has it ever really existed? Have "you" ever really been in control of thoughts and feelings? Much earlier in the dialogue, you wrote
Look really carefully into the assumptions behind the fear ... Driving the fear may be the idea that you are being asked to give something up or get rid of something, but all that you are being guided towards is recognising what has always been the case.
You're doing really well! I do hope you can carry on working with this fear and seeing into it - this stuff is the key
Best wishes,
Perry
I have had fear all day today.
Sorry to hear that ... I hope you are coping OK. But I am also quite pleased, because we are definitely onto something here!
The fear protects me from being lost in a world of madness with thoughts and feelings out of control.
This is really interesting, and goes right to the heart of the matter ....
The control that fear is protecting - has it ever really existed? Have "you" ever really been in control of thoughts and feelings? Much earlier in the dialogue, you wrote
Thoughts come from nowhere and seem to have a life of their own.
Look really carefully into the assumptions behind the fear ... Driving the fear may be the idea that you are being asked to give something up or get rid of something, but all that you are being guided towards is recognising what has always been the case.
You're doing really well! I do hope you can carry on working with this fear and seeing into it - this stuff is the key
Best wishes,
Perry
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Perry
Fear has been present again today. In the morning my body felt hot and burning and my thoughts were racing and I found it hard to concentrate. I was in the kitchen making breakfast with thoughts going round and round and feeling heavy physically, when I realised that the thoughts were there and I definitely had no way to control them, that there was no self involved, that they were just doing there own thing. It was only later that I suddenly remembered this and realised its significance. I really new thoughts were just thoughts doing there own thing. I nearly missed it because my experience physically was so uncomfortable and I felt so awful. You reminded me about expectations in an earlier post, when I was expecting the same joy I experienced with 'just hearing'. But this experience with 'thoughts' was just as important even though I felt awful.
Best wishes
Diane
Fear has been present again today. In the morning my body felt hot and burning and my thoughts were racing and I found it hard to concentrate. I was in the kitchen making breakfast with thoughts going round and round and feeling heavy physically, when I realised that the thoughts were there and I definitely had no way to control them, that there was no self involved, that they were just doing there own thing. It was only later that I suddenly remembered this and realised its significance. I really new thoughts were just thoughts doing there own thing. I nearly missed it because my experience physically was so uncomfortable and I felt so awful. You reminded me about expectations in an earlier post, when I was expecting the same joy I experienced with 'just hearing'. But this experience with 'thoughts' was just as important even though I felt awful.
Because of this experience this morning, I do now really know that I have never really been in control of thoughts and feelings. They just arise. I really can't control them.The control that fear is protecting - has it ever really existed? Have "you" ever really been in control of thoughts and feelings?
Yes I am definitely going to carry on working with this fear and trying to see into it, even though the fear is very unpleasant and I don't like it and I still feel afraid.I do hope you can carry on working with this fear and seeing into it - this stuff is the key
Best wishes
Diane
Re: Stuck in the mud
Hi Diane,
Hey, that's really good! Particularly the way this was apparent during a difficult mental state - that indicates a much more thorough realisation than something you can only 'see' under ideal, calm conditions.
So where is self to be found now?
Best wishes,
Perry
I realised that the thoughts were there and I definitely had no way to control them, that there was no self involved, that they were just doing there own thing. It was only later that I suddenly remembered this and realised its significance. I really new thoughts were just thoughts doing there own thing.
Hey, that's really good! Particularly the way this was apparent during a difficult mental state - that indicates a much more thorough realisation than something you can only 'see' under ideal, calm conditions.
So where is self to be found now?
Best wishes,
Perry
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