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[GotIt]

Do you have direct experience of the sound getting received by the ears and then interpreted by the brain? Or is that just thoughts about what happens, ideas and concepts that you have been taught?

It's probably just thoughts about what happens. I keep trying to see/experience things rather than think about them.

What can you perceive only in direct experience?

My first thought is "nothing", as I keep thinking and not feeling/experiencing. I was trying to just let things happen today without trying to control them/look at them (analyze them)/think about them, etc. to see if I could just experience things without all of the thoughts coming along about them.

Is there a you asking yourself all these questions? Or is that on automatic too?

I stop to think about things, and come up with the questions, but I don't think there's a me asking myself all of the questions. This is just me doing what I always do and analyzing things (I don't think there's a me asking myself all of the questions) rather than experiencing them.

Is there a you that gets mad because the noise interrupts you? Or is the getting mad an automatic response to the sound?

The getting mad is just a reaction happening. There's no "me" making it happen or choosing that reaction or whatever. I have to keep looking at this to see the reality that there really is no "me" making a reaction happen, that there is no "me" getting mad.

Quick response that just occurred to me and me talking to myself: This (what I write that is based on thinking) is all just BS! You have to look, be in the moment and experience things as they happen. Stop writing about what you think is going on and look!

If you were doing the analysing, then surely you could just stop ? So stop. You cant? Why not?

Dang! Don't confuse the issue with the facts (that there is no "me" to start or stop stuff)! This really hit me/effected me when I read it.

So, then if I can't stop the analyzing, then what do I do to experience things rather than interpret them with thinking?

Remember that analysing is one of the "things that happen" and so being aware that analysing is happening is useful. At the moment the analysing is distracting you, but observe how its all happening, including the analysing.

Two things I'm going to work on:

1. being aware that analyzing is happening, it's just a thing that is happening.

2. trying to be in the moment, to just experience things as they happen.

I also had a very brief experience today of me always thinking I'm correct/right, etc. about things (like I always have the right/correct answer, way of doing things, I always know best, etc.). I need to look to see if there is an "I" behind this, or if it's just happening, or if it's just one of the stories.

[neeeel]

What can you perceive only in direct experience?

My first thought is "nothing"

really? If you dont think about stuff, then theres no sights, sounds, smells or sensations?

I have to keep looking at this to see the reality that there really is no "me" making a reaction happen, that there is no "me" getting mad.

You have to look, be in the moment and experience things as they happen. Stop writing about what you think is going on and look!

I need to look to see if there is an "I" behind this, or if it's just happening, or if it's just one of the stories.

I notice you say this a few times every post, "I need to look" so get looking!! You are going to find nothing by sitting around and telling yourself to look. Are you looking at all? If so, what are you looking at? How are you looking?

[GotIt]

really? If you dont think about stuff, then theres no sights, sounds, smells or sensations?

I think when I said nothing, I was thinking about thoughts. What I can perceive in direct experience is things like tastes, smells, sounds, sights, sensations (e.g. air from a fan on my skin).

Are you looking at all? If so, what are you looking at? How are you looking?

I am looking. When I look, I tend to see thoughts. Now, I'm trying to look at sensations and things like that and trying to look at them as they happen. So far, I'm seeing that I can't look at them as they happen because every time I try to look, it's always past tense at something that has already happened.

I'm trying to be in the moment to feel things as they happen, and to see if there is a "me" behind anything that happens. I'm trying to just be with what is happening as it happens and just let it happen rather than to watch things as they happen because watching things, for me, brings up thoughts about sensations past tense.

It's impossible to be both watching the river of life and floating in the river of life as it occurs (This leads me to the idea/feeling of no "self" as you can't be in the river and also have a self watching the river of life at the same time--just another thought.). I'm trying to float in the river of sensations (I'm already doing this. I just don't "see/feel" it.). I'm trying to just be with sensations as they occur.

[GotIt]

Last night I had an argument with my son. Afterwards, I looked at what was going on inside me and what was behind it (things like anger, frustration, upset, tension in my head, etc., etc.). Looking occurred inside my head, and I came to an awareness of not needing to "do" anything, e.g. if I have an itch, I don't need to do anything to take care of it, my arm will just move to scratch it. It helped to bring up everyone of the reactions, feelings, etc. to the argument I had, and then keep looking behind them. It's like I had to bring them all up before I could see behind them or let them go or something.

There was a feeling/experience of not needing to do, (not needing to tell the stories about solving problems, or not needing to tell the stories about how I'm going to tell other people what happened, or what's been going on in my life, not needing to be attached or do the future stories about how I would tell my friends about my experience with liberationunleashed when I get to the end, and all of the things I've been thinking about) but rather that things happen and will just happen on their own. Feelings and sensations were just there (e.g. the tension in my head after the argument). It's like things just happening without me needing to control them (the feelings and reactions after the argument with my son can just be there without me trying to shape them, wanting to make them go away, etc.).

It's hard to explain it, as I can't remember exactly what was going on. When I woke up this morning, the experience of it wasn't happening, wasn't there. I'm just trying to be with the awareness of things just happening without trying to be wanting/attaching, e.g. to wanting last night's experience to be here now.
I'm trying to just be with/experience the idea that things happen on their own and be with the experience of things happening on their own (e.g. an itch will get scratched, paperwork that needs to be done will get done, etc.).

[neeeel]

I am looking. When I look, I tend to see thoughts. Now, I'm trying to look at sensations and things like that and trying to look at them as they happen. So far, I'm seeing that I can't look at them as they happen because every time I try to look, it's always past tense at something that has already happened.

Scratch your hand. Is it happening in the past tense? Or are the sensations there, available, perceived , right now? Thoughts may come up about the sensation, and these thoughts may seem to be in the past tense, since they are thoughts about a sensation that happened in the past. But are these thoughts there, available, perceived, right now?


With regard to your experience after your argument, it sounds like there was a letting go of something. An acceptance of how things are right at that moment, rather than fighting against that with an image of how things should be? All emotions accepted, without judgement.

if I have an itch, I don't need to do anything to take care of it, my arm will just move to scratch it

Yes, the arm just goes up and scratches, usually before you even think about it. Look at other things. Observe when you are making a meal for example, how much is done without you taking care of it? Or typing, are you controlling all the fingers , in the correct order? ( maybe if you are a 1 finger typer it isnt so easy to see this :D)

Experiences are nice, and can be indicators of greater understanding, but we are not looking for specific experiences. Experiences dont last forever, as you have found out.
I am not sure whereabouts you are with all this, so I will just ask a question

Do you exist?

[GotIt]

Scratch your hand. Is it happening in the past tense? Or are the sensations there, available, perceived , right now? Thoughts may come up about the sensation, and these thoughts may seem to be in the past tense, since they are thoughts about a sensation that happened in the past. But are these thoughts there, available, perceived, right now?

The sensations are there right now. The thoughts occur later. the thoughts about scratching the hand, occur later when thinking about scratching the hand. The actual sensations of scratching the hand, occur at the time of scratching.

With regard to your experience after your argument, it sounds like there was a letting go of something. An acceptance of how things are right at that moment, rather than fighting against that with an image of how things should be? All emotions accepted, without judgement.

Yes, there was a just being and just being in awareness, without thoughts about what should be, what should happen, etc.

Yes, the arm just goes up and scratches, usually before you even think about it. Look at other things. Observe when you are making a meal for example, how much is done without you taking care of it? Or typing, are you controlling all the fingers , in the correct order? ( maybe if you are a 1 finger typer it isnt so easy to see this :D)

Experiences are nice, and can be indicators of greater understanding, but we are not looking for specific experiences. Experiences dont last forever, as you have found out.

Yes, I'm not looking for a specific experience. I'm just trying to be in the experience as it happens without trying to define it, etc. I'm just trying to be with it while it comes and goes, like it's just the experience of something happening, a being with things as they happen automatically, rather than a watcher watching them happen, or a definer, defining and labeling the experience (I'm mad--the mad is still there, but not the being mad, He shouldn't have done that, etc. is not there.).

I am not sure whereabouts you are with all this, so I will just ask a question

Do you exist?

Last night was different in a way of just an experience happening, like a river flowing, and things just occurring on their own. I'm trying to live from an awareness of things just happening on their own, which makes things much lighter (like the substance in my chest is lighter). There's things just happening with no "person" doing them.

Do I exist? Yes, no, maybe, somewhat, some times more, some times less (like last night). Thinking about what I just wrote here brought up an awareness of a self being aware of itself, e.g. a person creating a "self", like a made up thought/belief of a self. I'll look at typing and making a meal and stuff like that.

Oh, I've been working on the idea today, that things just happen, and I don't need to make them happen. They happen without a "me" planning for them, preparing for them, etc, e.g. the outgoing mail will just get put in the mailbox, I don't have to remember to do this, and that things just happen and are the way they are supposed to be and are okay the way they are (e.g. if the mail doesn't get put in the box, it will be okay). It just is what it is.

[neeeel]

The sensations are there right now. The thoughts occur later. the thoughts about scratching the hand, occur later when thinking about scratching the hand. The actual sensations of scratching the hand, occur at the time of scratching.

The thoughts occur later than the scratching, yes. But when the thoughts occur, are they happening right now? The contents of the thoughts are about the past, but when do the actual thoughts occur? Are they present, available, perceived, right in that moment? In the same way that the sensations of scratching were present, available perceived, right in that moment?

Last night was different in a way of just an experience happening, like a river flowing, and things just occurring on their own. I'm trying to live from an awareness of things just happening on their own, which makes things much lighter (like the substance in my chest is lighter).

ok, but why are you trying to live from an awareness of things happening on their own? Is there something you have seen, some insight that has made it clear that this is what is happening in reality? Or is it just cos it seems like a good idea ?or what?

There's things just happening with no "person" doing them.

Is this true?

Do I exist? Yes, no, maybe, somewhat, some times more, some times less (like last night).

What was different about last night that made it seem like you didnt exist?
Remember that if theres no you, then theres never been one. So its not that you stopped existing last night, and then popped back into existence this morning.

Thinking about what I just wrote here brought up an awareness of a self being aware of itself, e.g. a person creating a "self", like a made up thought/belief of a self.

look more into this.

[GotIt]

But when the thoughts occur, are they happening right now? The contents of the thoughts are about the past, but when do the actual thoughts occur? Are they present, available, perceived, right in that moment? In the same way that the sensations of scratching were present, available perceived, right in that moment?

The thoughts occur right in the moment.

ok, but why are you trying to live from an awareness of things happening on their own? Is there something you have seen, some insight that has made it clear that this is what is happening in reality? Or is it just cos it seems like a good idea ?or what?

Last night it was just there, just happening. I couldn't/can't make it come, couldn't/can't make it go. I'm not doing it because it seems like a good idea, etc. It's just what is happening.

There's things just happening with no "person" doing them.

Is this true?

I don't know. Honestly, when I answer this question. I don't know. Yes, I can sort of see it with things like an itch (there's no "person" doing them, there's no "person" scratching the itch).

What was different about last night that made it seem like you didnt exist?
Remember that if theres no you, then theres never been one. So its not that you stopped existing last night, and then popped back into existence this morning.

I didn't stop existing last night and then popped back into existence this morning. I was in total awareness last night, and this morning I wasn't or something like that.

look more into this. [a person creating a "self", like a made up thought/belief of a self]

Will do. Thanks.

[GotIt]

Not seeing much, if anything, in the last day or two.

One thing I did notice very very briefly a couple of times is the feeling/sense/I don't know what to call it of it being totally okay when another person had an idea/view point different than mine. I'm a very open minded person, and have no problem with others believing something different than I do, and I respect their choices, but this was just a brief moment of it's really okay, their view is totally okay. I was totally okay with their view even though it was different than mine.

I've been trying to look at what I wrote about: "a person creating a "self", like a made up thought/belief of a self.", but I'm not seeing anything about a made up self.

I do have to say thanks for sticking with me through this.

Me thinking out loud: I feel like I'm not getting anywhere and not seeing stuff (like that there is no "self"). This isn't something I'm messing around with. It's something I really want, and I'm being totally honest in my replies to you, and am really trying to look and see what actually happening. I guess what I'm seeing in what I just wrote here, is that I'm frustrated that nothing is happening or changing or whatever ("I want what I want, when I want it!" reminding me of a demanding 2 year old!--maybe "I" should just "let go" although as everyone tells me, there is no "I" to "let go" or to be "let go" of. there never was an "I". Okay, so who's holding on? Is there a holder? Is there resistance? Who's doing the resisting or is it just happening and there's no "I" resisting? Who's the resister? Is there a resister? Is there something being resisted? Is there an "I'/person doing the resisting? Is there resisting happening with no "I"/person behind it?). Okay, too long and more wasted thoughts/analyzing/stories/questions that are just thoughts that get you no where, look to see if there is a holder/resister/"I" anywhere.

Thanks.

[neeeel]

Im kind of stuck as well. Maybe my pointers arent clear enough, or you need a different type of guide to help you, I dont really know.

There are thoughts, and theres the content of thoughts. Thoughts exist. Does the content of thoughts always refer to something that exists in reality?

I think that your noticing of stories was helpful. In the stories, does the "I" refer to anything real?
You can have stories of santa claus, does santa claus exist in reality?

It appears that you are examining the contents of thoughts to find the answer to "Is there no self?" What I wanted you to do is ignore the contents of thoughts, what they are about, and look at the thoughts themselves, but maybe that isnt helping you at all?

I'm frustrated that nothing is happening or changing or whatever

What do you expect to be happening or changing?

Me thinking out loud

Stop thinking out loud, start looking :D

If you feel that another view, another voice, another guide would be helpful then I dont mind at all if you start another thread on the forum. I am still happy to keep working with you here as well.

[GotIt]

Hi Neeeel,

Thanks. I think you're doing fine. It's just me.

I keep trying to look at what's behind things, e.g. to look at the thoughts themselves, without looking at the content of thoughts.

If you think it would work better for me to work with someone else, if you have anyone else in mind, just let me know. I'm also fine with continuing on with you.

I'm going to keep working on your message of look at the thoughts themselves and keep on trying to look.

What do you expect to be happening or changing?

I think I'm working from an expectation of there being a real out of the blue opening, like some big awareness happening or something. This morning when I thought about it (me thinking again! Stop thinking!), I realized it may be a slow opening without a big all at once shift. I also need to let go of expectations around what I "think" will happen.

Thanks.

[GotIt]

Had the realization this morning that the brain isn't in charge of itself or something like that. Basically, it does whatever it wants to do, and thinks whatever it wants to think whenever it wants to. Thoughts come up on their own and are totally random. There's no plan or paying attention to anything. Thoughts just come up at random with no plan and no focus to them.

[GotIt]

Last night when looking, I had tension in the back of my head and looked to see if there was a "me" there. What I saw was a head with tension without a "me" (like a head off on it's own with no "me" connected to it). I kept asking the question "is there a "me" there" with everything I thought of, e.g. thoughts, other body pains, etc. Everything I looked at had no "me" connected to it.
I tried to look at thoughts as they arose, and then stories would start about looking at thoughts, etc., etc. It was hard to just watch the thoughts. Even so, no matter whether it was a thought just arising or stories about looking at the thoughts, there was no "me" in them.

[neeeel]

Had the realization this morning that the brain isn't in charge of itself or something like that. Basically, it does whatever it wants to do, and thinks whatever it wants to think whenever it wants to. Thoughts come up on their own and are totally random. There's no plan or paying attention to anything. Thoughts just come up at random with no plan and no focus to them.

This sounds interesting. Is it a realisation, did you actually "see" this in action? What did you see that brought you this realisation?
Are thoughts totally random? Eg if you see that is raining , and the thought "I need to wear my jacket" comes up, is that random? I think I get what you are trying to say though.

Last night when looking, I had tension in the back of my head and looked to see if there was a "me" there. What I saw was a head with tension without a "me" (like a head off on it's own with no "me" connected to it). I kept asking the question "is there a "me" there" with everything I thought of, e.g. thoughts, other body pains, etc. Everything I looked at had no "me" connected to it.

When you say no "me" connected to it, what do you mean?

I tried to look at thoughts as they arose, and then stories would start about looking at thoughts, etc., etc. It was hard to just watch the thoughts. Even so, no matter whether it was a thought just arising or stories about looking at the thoughts, there was no "me" in them.

good. Are the stories about looking at the thoughts, not also thoughts themselves? Isnt the "me" always in the content of the thoughts, but never to be found outside of the content of the thoughts? in the same way that santa claus is always only in the content of the thoughts, but never found outside of the content?

[GotIt]

Glad to have you around! If this ever gets to be too much for you or you don't want to do it anymore, just let me know, and I'll look for someone else.

This sounds interesting. Is it a realisation, did you actually "see" this in action? What did you see that brought you this realisation?
Are thoughts totally random? Eg if you see that is raining , and the thought "I need to wear my jacket" comes up, is that random? I think I get what you are trying to say though.

I can't remember what I saw (and yes, I saw it), but it's like the brain is just there doing it's own thing, e.g. thinking on it's own without a thinker. If it's raining, and the thought I need to wear my jacket" comes up, is that random. I don't know: From what I've seen it's all random, e.g. the thought I need to wear my raincoat doesn't randomly come up on a sunny day (It's not random in this sense.), but when it's raining and it comes up, there's no "me" making it come up (It's comes up randomly in response to the weather.). I hope this makes sense.

When you say no "me" connected to it, what do you mean?

There's no "me", there's no person called a "me" or an "I" in the middle of the tension. It's just tension being there, there's no person/me/I in it. I'm not in control of it. I can't make the pain be there (pain, which I wouldn't want), and I can't make it go away (which I would want--for it to go away). It's just muscles spasming or whatever causing/meaning/ tightness and tension are present.

good. Are the stories about looking at the thoughts, not also thoughts themselves? Isnt the "me" always in the content of the thoughts, but never to be found outside of the content of the thoughts? in the same way that santa claus is always only in the content of the thoughts, but never found outside of the content?

The stories are also thoughts. Thoughts about other thoughts going on forever and ever (I was going to say me always thinking, but it thinking/thoughts always happening.). The me is mostly always in the content of the thought, e.g. "think of a banana" has no me in this thought (except for the thinking/thoughts happening that involve my brain doing what it does in thoughts coming up randomly). Yes, it's like Santa Claus, that can always be thought of (who he is, where he lives, what he does, etc.), but never seen to be real.

Isnt the "me" always in the content of the thoughts, but never to be found outside of the content of the thoughts?

I'm going to look at this some more, as yes, the "me" is in the thoughts, but never to be found outside the thoughts. I want to look at it to see the realness/truth of it (to see it in action as it happens--that I have thoughts with "me" in them, but there's no "me" outside of the "me" that is only in the thoughts). I also hope this makes sense.